I'm just a bit worried

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby baghead » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:21 am

Worldie wrote:Warriors got higher base stamina, they will always be ahead of paladins.

Personally i'm going to gem my warrior with hybrid gems (stam/avoidance) rather than pure stamina. I don't like spikes, so the more i can block/avoid, the better.

Remember spiky damage generally only matters where it will erode your EH pool within an unacceptably short period of time. Otherwise, your actual damage intake is generally irrelevant and EH is king (hence why warriors stacked so much stam in BC).

When you have health pools of around 30K and maybe 2K BV max, the mob will have to have an insanely high swing rate for healers to even notice the difference. Moreover, this 'advantage' will be eroded to nil benefit as you progress to T8.

The spikyness of droods in BC was more to do with armor not scaling for them as you got deep into T6 territory. When a warrior could be raid buffed/potted, etc up to 26-28k armor (inspiriation/ancestral healing/stoneshield potion/dev aura/etc) and not be crushed, -and- have a decent BV value, the gap closed to almost nil.

Lastly, spikyness was pretty much reduced once people learnt to use drood healers properly. Well geared, 2 resto droods could maintain around 1200 HPS on the MT each via 100% uptime of LBx3, RJ, RG. With two resto droods, that was almost 2.5K HPS 100% constant healing. Most encounters, tank average DTPS was between 950-1400 TPS.
baghead
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:10 am

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:26 am

Believe me, healers do notice difference when you constantly take a hit which removes 20% of your HP, and when you take one hit which removes 25%, and then one which removes 15%.

They don't care for your total HP, they base their heals on your % HP.
A spikey damage is harder to heal, because you cannot predict if the next hit will be full or not, hence they cannot choose if they should use that low healing heal to save mana, or the big fat crit to bring you up.
It used to matter a LOT when downranking was possible, but still matters now for some classes (mainly shamans and paladins) to choose which heal to use.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13419
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby baghead » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:37 am

Worldie wrote:Believe me, healers do notice difference when you constantly take a hit which removes 20% of your HP, and when you take one hit which removes 25%, and then one which removes 15%.

They don't care for your total HP, they base their heals on your % HP.
A spikey damage is harder to heal, because you cannot predict if the next hit will be full or not, hence they cannot choose if they should use that low healing heal to save mana, or the big fat crit to bring you up.
It used to matter a LOT when downranking was possible, but still matters now for some classes (mainly shamans and paladins) to choose which heal to use.

I think you're over selling this a little worldie. Yes, prot pallys take consitent damage due to almost 100% guaranteeed blocks, but block scales only with #swings/sec.

There is a very very small window where this advantage is significant enough to suggest a tank with 1-1.5K less HP is better suited to tank an encounter.

Assuming reaction/response time of 3 secs for a healer, the warrior has to basically live 3 secs less than a pally for their to be an advantage. I would suggest that it would take a very very fast swinging mob with reasonably low hits to approach that.
(ie. low hitter to remove the benefits of CB and SB on damage mitigation - so hitting for somewhere between 1-1.8x BV at something like 6-8 hits/sec)

Edit:
Actually, I can't -off the cuff- think of a single example. The contived example above won't work as holy shield will be burnt through too quickly.
Last edited by baghead on Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
baghead
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:10 am

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:38 am

I only make calculations on the "average joe" boss.

On a fast swing timer boss, a paladin is total win simply due to the constant blocking.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13419
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby baghead » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:41 am

Worldie wrote:I only make calculations on the "average joe" boss.

On a fast swing timer boss, a paladin is total win simply due to the constant blocking.

Only because you're convinced that constant steady damage is -that- much of an advantage. Given crushings are gone I just can't see how that works. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd love to see some hard math on it.

From my back of the envelope and though experiment, the 'block tank' advantage over a warrior seems flawed.

Edit:
I will make one disclaimer. As I'm not on beta it's very hard to find reliable stat comparison for tanks @80. (ie. how gear is itemised). If warriors do not get increasing amounts of static avoidance+block then perhaps the assertion has some merit. I'm very keen to see that state of play @80.
baghead
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:10 am

Postby majiben » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:46 am

baghead wrote: I'd love to see some hard math on it.
Can't have hard math till we get the encounters and have wws reports. Thought experiments will invariably be unsatisfying because the numbers and mechanics used aren't reflections of actual encounters.


Basically we'll win some and we'll lose some but all tanks will be capable of finishing the race and that's the way it's supposed to be.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:48 am

As i said above, a neo 80 tank will have around 40% pure avoidance and 20% block, and around 1200 BV. Naxx gear will put that closer to 45%, 25% and 1500+

Bosses from what i recall (been weeks since last naxx i did) tend to hit in between from 7k and 10k per melee on 25-30kish HP pool.

I'm not saying that steady damage is "that" big deal, but it's better, no matter what one can say. Healers will still be spamming you anyway, it's better if they can spam you constantly the same heal, rather than calculating what heal to use basing it on how much damage you just took.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13419
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Ruex » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:52 am

Majiben wrote:
baghead wrote: I'd love to see some hard math on it.
Can't have hard math till we get the encounters and have wws reports. Thought experiments will invariably be unsatisfying because the numbers and mechanics used aren't reflections of actual encounters.


Basically we'll win some and we'll lose some but all tanks will be capable of finishing the race and that's the way it's supposed to be.


Exactly this. Blizz said this is what they are aiming for, designing for, and working on.
to the OP and anyone who is being screwed over similarly if your raid/guild/class leader does not believe or subscribe to this get the fuck out. Your Play time is worth more then the vitual bench you may be warming.
___________________________________
Mouths to Pay and Bills to Feed.
Ruex
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:40 pm
Location: Pretty Hate Machine, Niagara Falls, Canada

Postby caboom » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:53 am

You will have less stamina than a Tauren Warrior tank always, they get like 4-500 hp just for beeing taurens(?).

Anyways i'd tend to think that 21.x k hp for sunwell is not so advantageous as having that extra health replaced by avoidance. With the new sanctuary, there is no reason stacking more EH than the requirements for some specific boss fights in sunwell.

Explain to your raid leader the advantages of having you and your paladin in the raid, if he's not an asshole he'll see it and would grant you raid spots in the future.
Image
User avatar
caboom
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 4:06 am
Location: Romania

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:56 am

To be honest, warriors would kill atm just to have Sanctuary, you have no idea of how OP for a warrior that bless is.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13419
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Aranbenjo » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:07 am

Worldie wrote:To be honest, warriors would kill atm just to have Sanctuary, you have no idea of how OP for a warrior that bless is.


That's why we are immovable from our "Blessadin" Raid positioning :D

Seriously guys,
Nothing has changed ...
The MT position is still assigned to the Warrior. They are amazing now having aoe control ...
They have more HP and from a RL pow is enough to not change his mind about who's is MT.

Furthermore, when i claim to him that i'm not being bok specced (we usually run with 5 pally) , he replyed that this should be an issue for my spot.

all in all from a RL pow, they made a great work for the Warriors, and a nice one for the pallys.
The savior of the broken,the beaten and the damned

Aranbenjo.Thunderhorn.EU
Aranbenjo
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:34 am
Location: italy

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:12 am

Aranbenjo wrote:Nothing has changed ...
The MT position is still assigned to the Warrior. They are amazing now having aoe control ...
They have more HP and from a RL pow is enough to not change his mind about who's is MT.

Mmm definitively not, paladins are perfectly competitive vs warriors.

Pre 3.0 you had to "justify"
1) Less stamina
2) Need for a warrior to put TC
3) Need for a war or rogue to put armor debuff
4) Less threat
5) Less HP
6) Less avoidance
7) 4% less mitigation
8 ) No interrupt
9) No spellreflect
10) Lag-dependant crushabilty

Post 3.0 you however have
1) More predictable damage
2) Comparable mitigation (namely 1% more damage for us, but we gain more block from same STR)
3) Same avoidance (if not more since we scale better with Agi)
4) A unique buff (Sanctuary)
our only "issues" atm are
1) Less DPS/TPS (which doesn't matter currently since our threat is beyond the roof
2) Less HP
3) No spellreflect
Which trade off perfectly.

Obviously we could be better, but it's nowhere close as it was in TBC. TBC paladin was NOT intended as Main Tank. WotLK paladin IS.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13419
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby caboom » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:18 am

Worldie wrote:To be honest, warriors would kill atm just to have Sanctuary, you have no idea of how OP for a warrior that bless is.


This, and many others.
Get tanking OP.


@Worldie's last post :

In 3.0

1) Ability to have non-missed taunts due to glyphs(?).

In 3.1

1) 1 min(30 sec talented) spell interupt.
Image
User avatar
caboom
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 4:06 am
Location: Romania

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:26 am

In theory HoJ stun is already working, one of our arcane mages QQd that if a paladin stunned him while channeling arcane missiles, he could not blink.

It's just bugged on "immune" things, guessing it will work either on WotLK launch or 3.1
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13419
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:27 am

And about Sanct... i had it on my warrior recently, i was like, 100/100 rage constantly, i had no idea of how to use it, i was spamming HS and every skill on CD and still wouldnt go below 100 rage.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13419
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest