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I'm just a bit worried

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I'm just a bit worried

Postby Cema » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:20 pm

With the 3.0 and after we ran Hyjal in 2hours my GM understood that warrior aoe threat has just become wonderfull.

before this patch he never let me tank anything than trash mobs because I good at it, now he doesn't accept me in raids :? Last time I wanted to go Sunwell he asked "How many Hp do you have now?" well 21k5 full buff ..

and .. I wasn't accepted cause our warriors have 1k to 1k5 more with the same gear and 2k for our feral druid

I'm ok with the concept of optimization and i'm ok with giving warriors good aoe threat but if prot pally have really less hp in comparison of warriors i wonder if we will have a place in wotlk raids ? :/

Imo ghostcrawler is missing the point. She is undoubtly a good girl and she would take a prot pally even with his poor stamina but raid leaders will not cause the only thing they understand is pure optimization. They only care about health and mitigation

Burning Crusade made us trashtankadins, i am affraid that Wotlk will make us Rerolladins

Is there any hope? What can i say to my Gm if i want him to accept me?
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Re: I'm just a bit worried

Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:21 pm

Cema wrote:Imo ghostcrawler is missing the point. She is undoubtly a good girl and she would take a prot pally even with his poor stamina but raid leaders will not cause the only thing they understand is pure optimization. They only care about health and mitigation


I share your concerns. And we've been shown a guy who is supposedly Ghostcrawler.
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:27 pm

Our strength is mitigating unpredictable non-magic burst. If you can't explain to your raid leader why you should be the one tanking, you probably shouldn't be the one tanking.
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Postby Angella » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:28 pm

I'm kinda worried that no spec will be optimal anymore. Ret dps just got nerfed hard. Prot, while viable, isn't exactly making any geat impressions. And when was the last time holy was anything but a place filler?

Sorry for the QQ. Would love someone to allay my fears.
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Postby Cema » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:42 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Our strength is mitigating unpredictable non-magic burst. If you can't explain to your raid leader why you should be the one tanking, you probably shouldn't be the one tanking.



Our MT1 discovered the signification of Block value when we began to try Ros. he didn't know what it was and we had to explain it to him :/ (lolnoob ^^)

Moreover with BT gear your warrior will basically have
30% dodge
20% parry
25% block

The advantage of Holy shield over Shield block every 40 seconds is .. questionable with this kind of gear
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:53 pm

Cema wrote:Moreover with BT gear your warrior will basically have
30% dodge
20% parry
25% block

The advantage of Holy shield over Shield block every 40 seconds is .. questionable with this kind of gear

In Sunwell gear you can get over 70% Avoidance. Haven't cared enough to work out the numbers, because:

In WotLK, you'll be nowhere near those numbers. Even with HS up, you may not be at 102.4%.
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Re: I'm just a bit worried

Postby Dianora » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:54 pm

Cema wrote:With the 3.0 and after we ran Hyjal in 2hours my GM understood that warrior aoe threat has just become wonderfull.

before this patch he never let me tank anything than trash mobs because I good at it, now he doesn't accept me in raids :? Last time I wanted to go Sunwell he asked "How many Hp do you have now?" well 21k5 full buff ..

and .. I wasn't accepted cause our warriors have 1k to 1k5 more with the same gear and 2k for our feral druid

I'm ok with the concept of optimization and i'm ok with giving warriors good aoe threat but if prot pally have really less hp in comparison of warriors i wonder if we will have a place in wotlk raids ? :/

Imo ghostcrawler is missing the point. She is undoubtly a good girl and she would take a prot pally even with his poor stamina but raid leaders will not cause the only thing they understand is pure optimization. They only care about health and mitigation

Burning Crusade made us trashtankadins, i am affraid that Wotlk will make us Rerolladins

Is there any hope? What can i say to my Gm if i want him to accept me?


Put up JoL and take the boss away from your GM. Otherwise, get a new guild. BTW, Ghostcrawler is a man.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:56 pm

Cema wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Our strength is mitigating unpredictable non-magic burst. If you can't explain to your raid leader why you should be the one tanking, you probably shouldn't be the one tanking.



Our MT1 discovered the signification of Block value when we began to try Ros. he didn't know what it was and we had to explain it to him :/ (lolnoob ^^)

Moreover with BT gear your warrior will basically have
30% dodge
20% parry
25% block

The advantage of Holy shield over Shield block every 40 seconds is .. questionable with this kind of gear


That's a pretty good point actually, the warrior is looking at only 15% of attacks getting through, which makes critical blocks and then of course shield block really strong. On top of that, since they have dragged their feet on the Shield of the Templar change, there's another 3% you are behind. The only logic you could possibly use is that encounters are so easy it doesn't matter, which is pretty lame.

I think your raid leader is probably a bit clueless overall, but with the current situation you are likely worse off than you were pre 3.0, so it's not an easy sell.
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Postby majiben » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:58 pm

Get a new guild.

The leadership is an ass if they refuse to take you on farm content simply because your job can be done by another. This is the purest source of (WoW) Classism if i've ever seen one.
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Postby majiben » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:00 am

With the str->BV change they are far better off tanking trash in hyjal then before. The warrior's +5% block chance is offset by AD and redoubt procs.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:37 am

Knaughty wrote:
In WotLK, you'll be nowhere near those numbers. Even with HS up, you may not be at 102.4%.

With HS up you should be at 102.4% or close to it as soon as uncrittable at 80 (unless you really got only defense/resilience on gear).

I think with my pally on the beta i was at 95% and something, raid buffs would have brought that to 102.4% anyway.

Warriors on the other side as neo 80 will be at around 40% avoidance and 20%ish block, meaning a good 40% of the hits they take will not be blocked (hence hurt for 1500 to 3000 more).


Paladins take steady damage. Warriors, for how odd it can be, take very spikey damage. It's true now, it'll be even more true in WotLK.
Making a short example, assume a boss that hits for 8k (realistic for wotlk), and 1300 BV, and said avoidance above.
Paladin will take steady 6700 damage per hit, and avoid 40% of the hits.
A Warrior will avoid 40% of the hits, then block about 14% for 6700, block about 6% for 5400, and take the whole 8k damage the remaining 40% of the time. And if he decides to shield block, he'll get 5400 to 4000 damage, and then eventually take a few hits for 8000 when it runs out.

Steady damage > Spikes, always ;) It was why you didn't want to use a druid on bosses that crush in TBC, even if a crush on them hitted for the same as a normal hit on a pala/war.
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Re: I'm just a bit worried

Postby Cema » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:06 am

Dianora wrote: BTW, Ghostcrawler is a man.



too bad ! :o

With the str->BV change they are far better off tanking trash in hyjal then before. The warrior's +5% block chance is offset by AD and redoubt procs.


true. but I had already 1000 block value in trash tanking gear before the patch so it doesnt change much

In Sunwell gear you can get over 70% Avoidance. Haven't cared enough to work out the numbers, because:

In WotLK, you'll be nowhere near those numbers. Even with HS up, you may not be at 102.4%.


I heard about this. With the upcoming change of shield of the templar we will have a good mitigation at 80, maybe better than the warrior's one at the begining

I wonder if the diminishing return on avoidance stats will be sufficient to keep the dodge / parry of tanks a bit low and help us mitigate as much as a warrior as long as possible

My main concern is about health. With touched by the light + diminishing return on avoidance stats we will have more interest in socketing with stam gems .. but warriors will surely do the same no? Atm our stam scales 6% better than them, I doubt we will be equal on this before a looong time (T9?)
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:08 am

Warriors got higher base stamina, they will always be ahead of paladins.

Personally i'm going to gem my warrior with hybrid gems (stam/avoidance) rather than pure stamina. I don't like spikes, so the more i can block/avoid, the better.
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Postby majiben » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:17 am

We won't even out in raw EH (before block value) in wotlk due to their gun slot and higher base health. But as worldie said we'll never take the spikes that a warrior does.

It would take over 1700 stamina before scalars to break even on raw EH. and that level of stamina is just unlikely considering that 11k raw stamina would be about the limits we can get in SWP (note that pure stam stacking with no reguards to other stats) and stamina values only seem to be going up by at most 50%
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Postby Ruex » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:19 am

Majiben wrote:Get a new guild.
The leadership is an ass if they refuse to take you on farm content simply because your job can be done by another. This is the purest source of (WoW) Classism if i've ever seen one.

Agreed.
Your raid leader is a Dick. If he is pulling this Bull shit now, you are going to probably have issue with him come lvl80 and Naxx. If he won't take you into a nerfed sunwell due to the variances in tanks as each class is different due to on paper numerical bullshit better to now leave and find a good group you can get close with so you will be up front where you belong come 80.
Last edited by Ruex on Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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