Concerning Tank Damage

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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:15 am

Dantriges wrote:Toughness bug?
Toughness is the mining skill passive effect. It increases health by a small amount based on your skill level. The 225-299 mining rank of toughness is adding 700 hp instead of 70. (Or was it 70 stamina instead of 70 hp? Either way - it's about 10x the effect it should have.)

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Postby Jasari » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:23 am

thomase wrote:
Worldie wrote:FYI, ShoR can miss but cannot be dodge-parryed


It can be deflected however. Isn't deflection the ranged equivalent of parry?


I believe you're thinking of hammer, not shield
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Postby thomase » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:26 am

:cry:
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:30 am

Do I have concerns over our DPS/TPS output? Yes.

My biggest fear is that Blizzard is 'balancing' us to theoretical models so that at end-game we will be balanced.

The big question becomes, what is end-game like. Obviously Nax is not a good example of it.

Ghostcrawler has specifically stated that Naxx is really set up as a learning raid environment and that as such, it is not that hard.

He has also stated that post-Naxx raid mobs will have significantly more armor and that encounters will be more difficult.

Keep in mind, that the bulk of the damage we do is holy damage, and, is not affected by armor.

Net of it is, that if they are tuning out dps/tps output to balance on those higher AC/tougher mobs, then we can expect to be putting out less DPS and probably lower TPS all the way to end-game dungeons than either warriors or druids.

So again, effectively, we can expect to be weaker versions of our tanking counterparts all the way to end-game...much like TBC.

If they balance our dps at lower encounter/gear levels, then they run the risk of our dps/tps being better than our tanking counterparts.

Kind of a catch-22 and I really am not liking the implications.
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Postby Lore » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:47 am

Given that they will be designing and testing the new content (and presumably pushing to PTR as well) before it's released, I'm not too concerned that they're going to just make some stuff and throw it out there because it made sense on paper 6 months ago.

If our DPS is low, they will increase our DPS. GC already said that much when Ret was nerfed.

As to whether or not tank DPS matters: of course it does. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter in the slightest where it's coming from. Say you're going to Brutallus, pre-nerf, and you're choosing between two rogues. One does 2200 DPS. The other does more like 1600. Which do you pick? Why?
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:51 am

Lore wrote:Given that they will be designing and testing the new content (and presumably pushing to PTR as well) before it's released, I'm not too concerned that they're going to just make some stuff and throw it out there because it made sense on paper 6 months ago.

If our DPS is low, they will increase our DPS. GC already said that much when Ret was nerfed.

As to whether or not tank DPS matters: of course it does. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter in the slightest where it's coming from. Say you're going to Brutallus, pre-nerf, and you're choosing between two rogues. One does 2200 DPS. The other does more like 1600. Which do you pick? Why?

Why do I always agree with you Lore?
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:57 am

Vanifae wrote:
Lore wrote:Given that they will be designing and testing the new content (and presumably pushing to PTR as well) before it's released, I'm not too concerned that they're going to just make some stuff and throw it out there because it made sense on paper 6 months ago.

If our DPS is low, they will increase our DPS. GC already said that much when Ret was nerfed.

As to whether or not tank DPS matters: of course it does. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter in the slightest where it's coming from. Say you're going to Brutallus, pre-nerf, and you're choosing between two rogues. One does 2200 DPS. The other does more like 1600. Which do you pick? Why?

Why do I always agree with you Lore?


You always agree with Lore, because you are both eternal optimists...heh
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Postby Jasari » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:57 am

Lore wrote:As to whether or not tank DPS matters: of course it does. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter in the slightest where it's coming from. Say you're going to Brutallus, pre-nerf, and you're choosing between two rogues. One does 2200 DPS. The other does more like 1600. Which do you pick? Why?


Yes, DPS matters, but it doesn't matter nearly as much for tanks as it does for a DPS class.

If you're trying to decide between two tanks and one has 18k, 60% avoidance, and 500dps; and one has 15hp, 45% avoidance, and 750dps which one do you tank?

When looking at DPS classes, the #1 balancing factor is DPS output. When looking at tanks the #1 balancing factor is survivability.

I agree 100% that we should be competitive with other tanks on DPS, but I don't think I'd agree that tanking raid spots will ultimately be decided on DPS output
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:59 am

Jasari wrote:If you're trying to decide between two tanks and one has 18k, 60% avoidance, and 500dps; and one has 15hp, 45% avoidance, and 750dps which one do you tank?

This depends on the fight, like you said.

I could see taking the lower avoidance and lower health tank if the DPS is substantially higher which it is; and I could see going with the former tank on a fight that may be more survival focused.

Edit: I think many tanks are undervaluing their own DPS.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:08 am

Jasari wrote:
Lore wrote:As to whether or not tank DPS matters: of course it does. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter in the slightest where it's coming from. Say you're going to Brutallus, pre-nerf, and you're choosing between two rogues. One does 2200 DPS. The other does more like 1600. Which do you pick? Why?


Yes, DPS matters, but it doesn't matter nearly as much for tanks as it does for a DPS class.

If you're trying to decide between two tanks and one has 18k, 60% avoidance, and 500dps; and one has 15hp, 45% avoidance, and 750dps which one do you tank?

When looking at DPS classes, the #1 balancing factor is DPS output. When looking at tanks the #1 balancing factor is survivability.

If you already have your best DPS, and you wipe for enrage timer, i'd consider the tank with more DPS and less avoidance.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:11 am

Worldie wrote:
Jasari wrote:
Lore wrote:As to whether or not tank DPS matters: of course it does. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter in the slightest where it's coming from. Say you're going to Brutallus, pre-nerf, and you're choosing between two rogues. One does 2200 DPS. The other does more like 1600. Which do you pick? Why?


Yes, DPS matters, but it doesn't matter nearly as much for tanks as it does for a DPS class.

If you're trying to decide between two tanks and one has 18k, 60% avoidance, and 500dps; and one has 15hp, 45% avoidance, and 750dps which one do you tank?

When looking at DPS classes, the #1 balancing factor is DPS output. When looking at tanks the #1 balancing factor is survivability.

If you already have your best DPS, and you wipe for enrage timer, i'd consider the tank with more DPS and less avoidance.


If you have your best DPS and wipe to the enrage timer, you either need better DPS or the encounter is overtuned.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:16 am

For some reason I get the feeling that we may encounter fights where tank DPS will matter.
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Postby Altrussia » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:17 am

Enrage timer, 2 mins, GO!
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:18 am

moduspwnens wrote:Heck, even if he's right, you'd probably be better off having your tank wear normal gear and your healers do more DPS from having to heal him less.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:18 am

thomase wrote:
Worldie wrote:FYI, ShoR can miss but cannot be dodge-parryed


It can be deflected however. Isn't deflection the ranged equivalent of parry?


You sure on that, I don't remember ShoR being deflected, HotR gets deflected all the time.
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