Concerning Tank Damage

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Postby Dantriges » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:11 am

Toughness bug?
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Postby Bobness » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:15 am

As it is single Target wise

SOV/JOV combined will be contributing little to DPS/TPS maybe approx 12-13% Damage 14-16% Threat.

SHor Still appears to be a good way ahead as the main threat mechanism, not sure if it can be Dodged/Blocked/Parried/Miss, if not then that's not so bad.

Hotr again maybe 12% of your DPS, although this improves with the number of Targets your hitting as well as giving somee synergy to SOV.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:18 am

FYI, ShoR can miss but cannot be dodge-parryed
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Postby Bobness » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:25 am

Worldie wrote:FYI, ShoR can miss but cannot be dodge-parryed


Thanks :-)

Well then given ShoR is going to be between 25%-30% of our threat (Boss Tanking) in good gear, then adding some hit rating will be bumped up my list of priorities.
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Postby Ascendant » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:22 am

Majiben wrote:
Arnock wrote:unfortunately, due to paladin mechanics, pretty much anything they do to boost prot dps will buff ret a little too much for blizz's comfort



What I think they should do, is make reckoning a one-point 'holy windfury' where we have a chance on melee hit and, say, parrying an attack to instantly strike the target for holy damage Make it require a one-handed weapon so it won't be too usefull for ret
Adding holy damage raises threat faster than dps. What I think prot could use is a large increase in white damage via a talent. That would raise our dps without disportionally raising threat. Put something on it to ret to shun it for pvp. Would make a nice 11 point talent or replacement for reckoning.


but reckoning IS a large increase to white damage :? that's why no one uses it.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:44 am

I think there is some grain of truth to what GC is saying; Protection DPS is still comparatively low at least at 70, I am not sure how this washes out at 80 but I don’t expect myself to be in the top 5 unless it is a ten man. But I can still clock in 1100 DPS in BT without Shield of Righteousness; if other tank classes are doing comparative damage then I can see where in especially ten man content the tuning could be tight enough that yes tank DPS will matter.

Naxx 10 or even Naxx 25 cannot be used as a strong baseline because it is basically old mechanics being shoe horned into a new system; the fights were not created with the new mechanics in mind, they were adjusted perhaps but we won’t get a good taste till Ulduar. The two stand alone raids give a taste of things to come but I am really waiting to see what Ulduar brings. With that in mind I think it is premature to say that our DPS as a tank will not matter. If they intend to make it matter then they will make fights where it will be tuned tightly and every bit of DPS will help.

I also say this because my Guild Leader made a comment to me that stuck in my head. He joked that since tank threat is ridiculously high, one of the good ways to tell a good tank from a mediocre one is how much DPS they put out along with how much threat they generate. Obviously in this new day and age the two are closely linked but I don’t think this comment is too far off the mark.

I think stamina is over valued; it is a required as a tank to have a high amount of stamina but I think some tanks may take it to an extreme and often many guilds and players do as well. But given that it is the simplest stat to see visually, I can see where many players will base their tank decisions on stamina alone; a poor decision in my eyes but one that is often made nonetheless. Tanks will need to stack threat/DPS stats alongside our mitigation and avoidance abilities. I think GC probably didn’t make a great argument to druids with this comment but the overall state of tanking is headed in that direction.

As far as white damage is concerned it will be significant and if we are using the proper weapons and wearing tank gear then it will always be a sizeable portion of our DPS, and to a large extent our threat output as protection paladins. But I don’t want to make too many comments on protection paladin DPS till I have a chance to play with the seal/judgment changes from the nerf.
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Postby Bobness » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:09 am

Simulations i'm running have:-

Melee Dmg 20%-22% of DPS
Melee Dmg 12%-13% of TPS

they are however just simulations
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:11 am

Bobness wrote:Simulations i'm running have:-

Melee Dmg 20%-22% of DPS
Melee Dmg 12%-13% of TPS

they are however just simulations

At what level, I assume 80? Any details on what you used in the simulations, numbers without any real explanation don't mean much.
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Postby Equillian » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:23 am

Arnock wrote:unfortunately, due to paladin mechanics, pretty much anything they do to boost prot dps will buff ret a little too much for blizz's comfort


Am I the only one that sees the fix here? It seems obvious to me. Move the 1h dmg buff talent down a couple tiers (so ret could never get it), jack up the percentage, and lower the percentage of RF.

One up, one down. Fixed, we all go home, happy.

What percentage of 1h dmg gets bumped? What percentage of RF gets nerfed?... I dunno, thats for blizzard and the napkin mathematicians.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:29 am

I don't see too many Retribution paladins wanting one handed spec so I doubt that would really be something desirable for them. Probably not the best place for a buff either.
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Postby Equillian » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:33 am

Vanifae wrote:I don't see too many Retribution paladins wanting one handed spec so I doubt that would really be something desirable for them. Probably not the best place for a buff either.


One reason why? Damage increase, threat decrease.... isnt that what everyone needs/wants?
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:44 am

Equillian wrote:
Vanifae wrote:I don't see too many Retribution paladins wanting one handed spec so I doubt that would really be something desirable for them. Probably not the best place for a buff either.


One reason why? Damage increase, threat decrease.... isnt that what everyone needs/wants?

But Retribution for raids and PvP use two hand weapons, one handed specialization would be a waste for anything except tanking, since we can't dual wield.

So why would they go out of their way to get this?
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Postby Jasari » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:50 am

Equillian wrote:
Arnock wrote:unfortunately, due to paladin mechanics, pretty much anything they do to boost prot dps will buff ret a little too much for blizz's comfort


Am I the only one that sees the fix here? It seems obvious to me. Move the 1h dmg buff talent down a couple tiers (so ret could never get it), jack up the percentage, and lower the percentage of RF.

One up, one down. Fixed, we all go home, happy.

What percentage of 1h dmg gets bumped? What percentage of RF gets nerfed?... I dunno, thats for blizzard and the napkin mathematicians.


As it's been said, no Ret Paladin would ever get 1h spec ever...

But as far as a way to increase our damage, I'd much rather see some +judgement damage baked into ThunderJudge. Maybe a straight % increase or something like:
"Your judgements have a x% chance to deal additional holy damage equal to your y*BV"... this would be fun just because they could add a cool animation to it. I'd personally push for a lower proc % and a really high multiplier to BV just so that we could see some big numbers.
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Postby Vengeful » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:02 am

Ascendant wrote:
Majiben wrote:
Arnock wrote:unfortunately, due to paladin mechanics, pretty much anything they do to boost prot dps will buff ret a little too much for blizz's comfort



What I think they should do, is make reckoning a one-point 'holy windfury' where we have a chance on melee hit and, say, parrying an attack to instantly strike the target for holy damage Make it require a one-handed weapon so it won't be too usefull for ret
Adding holy damage raises threat faster than dps. What I think prot could use is a large increase in white damage via a talent. That would raise our dps without disportionally raising threat. Put something on it to ret to shun it for pvp. Would make a nice 11 point talent or replacement for reckoning.


but reckoning IS a large increase to white damage :? that's why no one uses it.


Mmm...not quite. Nobody takes it because it reverse scales with gear. As we begin stacking avoidance and replacing block %, it procs less.
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Postby thomase » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:11 am

Worldie wrote:FYI, ShoR can miss but cannot be dodge-parryed


It can be deflected however. Isn't deflection the ranged equivalent of parry?
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