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Concerning Tank Damage

All things related to the expansion

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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:31 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Yeah, but were you going to tell your tanks to sacrifice HP for a small amount of threat?


No, I must have missed something.

I assumed we were talking about "tanks should do reasonable and similar DPS" no "tank in ret gear".
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:46 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Yeah, but were you going to tell your tanks to sacrifice HP for a small amount of threat?


No, I must have missed something.

I assumed we were talking about "tanks should do reasonable and similar DPS" no "tank in ret gear".


The context of GC's quote was Druids complaining that PVP gear was better than PVE gear. They gave a specific example which had more stamina, just one less agi, and less AP and expertise. GC responded with the comment you see in the OP about tank DPS. Basically saying the added threat was worth the loss of health. To me, health on a druid with that armor value is valuable beyond belief, and I'd take the stamina and only worry about the threat/dps if it became an issue.

As for DPS, if it matters as much as GC is saying which I'm incredibly skeptical of, then we probably need some buffs to DPS especially following the class wide nerfs, and therefore we'd also probably need some nerfs to RF.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:55 pm

Oh, well that's retarded.

The DPS difference for a bear in PvP gear vs a bear in tanking gear is a total non-issue.

The difference between an entire spec might be enough to be an issue. It certainly was in TBC, though they're aiming to avoid it in Wrath.

Totally agree regarding out TPS vs DPS problems.

JoL to zero threat, NOW.
RF -> 60%, nerfed from 90.

Boot DPS to compensate.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:39 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I find it difficult to believe:
You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


Are you guys really buying this?

Progression Brute kills were tuned close to this well.

We actually looked at going bear+bear+Expose Armor to get the last couple of percentage points of damage.

In a 10, it's far harder to tune it that tight, because you don't know if the second tank is protection (bad DPS) or feral/DK (good DPS) and you don't know if they have 2 healers or 3.


Yeah, but were you going to tell your tanks to sacrifice HP for a small amount of threat?

There is a point where stamina is too much. Lots of tanks never understood this, i still see Sunwell tanks with only stamina gems :\
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:01 am

Worldie wrote:There is a point where stamina is too much. Lots of tanks never understood this, i still see Sunwell tanks with only stamina gems :\


That's apples and oranges though, the alternative isn't another form of survivability, it's threat. If they were arguing stamina versus armor versus dodge then fine, this is stamina versus AP.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:28 am

On a DPS race, as long as you can survive the boss, i don't see why you shouldnt desire to increase your DPS.

Having 1k more HP will not probably save you from the enrage-oneshot, but doing 50 more DPS will
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby kvark » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:31 am

doesn't stamina indirectly also increases threat through SP talent ? =)
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:40 am

Considering you need about 3 stamina for 1 spelldamage, and considering we scale quite bad with spelldamage, i don't think it's really worth considerning stamina as "threat stat".
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Gamingdevil » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:10 am

Worldie wrote:There is a point where stamina is too much. Lots of tanks never understood this, i still see Sunwell tanks with only stamina gems :\


Pre- or post-nerf? Since the nerf we've been progressing in SWP and since the loss of Sunwell Radiance my avoidance sits quite comfortable around 60% while maintaing "uncrushability" I gem for straight stamina, am "exploiting" the Mining Toughness bug and am still only barely on par with our warriors hp wise (though imo they're overdoing it a bit on stamina, using two stamina trinkets for instance)
I think my avoidance is at a decent enough level and even though stamina isn't everything, a lot of people look at it like it is. Our GL/RL is inactive atm (due to real life) and someone else took over, who doesn't understand class mechanics as good as the GL, but who does a good job nonetheless. And last time on Brut: the tanks with highest hp should tank him. Granted he hits hard, but it's not the entire picture. I ninja switched a DMC:V in and switched back to avoidance trinkets when it was decided I could tank :P
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:15 am

Both pre and post.

Pre 3.0, there was no big deal in having more than 21-22k HP raidbuffed. Now, there's no real point in having more than 20k and something.

1% more avoidance was a lot better than 500 more HP. I was at over 85% avoidance raidbuffed pre 3.0, /sigh, but just 21k raidbuffed HP.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Enkal » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:29 am

Vanifae wrote:I support increased white damage threat.


Checking our recent Brutallus kill and accounting for 1,43 threat modifier on white damage my white threat was #2 (15% of my threat) after HotR (18% of my threat). Blood corruption at #3 @ 14%.

White threat is fairly high @ 70 at least. :)

I'm using a Swiftsteel Bludgeon btw.
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Postby Greengo » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:30 am

Worldie wrote:Both pre and post.

Pre 3.0, there was no big deal in having more than 21-22k HP raidbuffed. Now, there's no real point in having more than 20k and something.

1% more avoidance was a lot better than 500 more HP. I was at over 85% avoidance raidbuffed pre 3.0, /sigh, but just 21k raidbuffed HP.

But now, with DR, another 1% avoidance costs more than before 3.0, and sta/HP still scalling very well with our talents, even better than pre-3.0 ;)
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Postby Gamingdevil » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:35 am

Indeed, atm I have a hell of a lot of dodge and parry is hard to come by apart from adding gems. My hp is at a comfortable level now, but as soon as they fix the Thoughness bug I'll drop quite a bit again.
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Postby Magnusharkov » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:39 am

Right now ignoring innate threat modifiers (because I dont know a lot about them anymore) a paladin will only be producing the same TPS and the same DPS as a warrior if 50% of his damage comes from white attacks and 50% comes from holy. While this is design is techinically possible I think its safe to say that blizzard is unlikely to do anything to drastically boost our white damage that much for it to be balanced.

Lowering the threat modifier on RF and adjusting abilities accordingly has been proposed before so I won't dwell on this, however there are other ways of balancing this to have more or less a fair DPS/TPS split.

Lets say for the sake of argument that Paladin white damage is buffed somehow so that it contributes 40% of our total single target damage output, this is a big leap but I believe its still within the realms of being believable. Then lets look at some maths to see how that compares to a warrior. For the sake of making this simple I'm ignoring baked in salv and innate threat modifiers, the latter would effect this quite a bit but I dont know enough about them while the former can be dropped from discussion as it effects everything equally.

A warrior does 3000 DPS. With his 1.45 threat modifier he is doing 4350 TPS

A paladin is doing exactly the same TPS as the warrior - 4350 TPS. Assume 60% of the damage he does is holy and 40% is white damage. This works out to roughly 1695 holy DPS and 1130 white DPS which totals 2825 DPS.

If this was the current state of prot DPS/TPS then I genuinely wouldn't have a problem with it. If we could do the same threat as warriors and 90% of the DPS of warriors then I think we are absolutely fine, as chances are we are doing a fair chunk more damage on AoE fights which kind of balances out (Note I don't have any data for this, it's just my guess).

Anyway we can argue with blizzard that we need our RF threat modifier to be lowered and have our abilities adjusted accordingly, this is one solution which could work but would require rebalancing a hell of a lot of abilities. The other solution which I am leaning towards at the moment is to just add talents that drastically increase our white damage so that it contributes 40% of our single target DPS. If we hit that then in my opinion we end up pretty balanced.
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Postby Eaglestrike » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:04 am

Just make Seal of Corruption/Vengeance one-handed only and buff the hell out of it (and make the additional damage when 5-stacks are on more meaningful).
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