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Concerning Tank Damage

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Concerning Tank Damage

Postby Rupheo » Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:13 pm

Part of that is because we want tanks to contribute damage. The days of tanks stacking nothing but effective health and relying on the rest of the group for dps are over. You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


http://blue.mmo-champion.com/2/12065146837-ghostcrawler--any-news.html

*Fifth GC post, near the bottom.

This little tidbit set my spidersense tingling. I foresee tank dps becoming the latest front in the great balance war of 08-09.
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Postby Levantine » Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:18 pm

Basically they'll have to change Righteous Fury, or Paladins will always have to have either the lowest DPS or the highest TPS.
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Postby majiben » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:13 pm

Levantine wrote:Basically they'll have to change Righteous Fury, or Paladins will always have to have either the lowest DPS or the highest TPS.
We could potentially have both at the same time :-D.

Really though blizzard does need to addres this.
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Postby Arnock » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:25 pm

unfortunately, due to paladin mechanics, pretty much anything they do to boost prot dps will buff ret a little too much for blizz's comfort



What I think they should do, is make reckoning a one-point 'holy windfury' where we have a chance on melee hit and, say, parrying an attack to instantly strike the target for holy damage Make it require a one-handed weapon so it won't be too usefull for ret
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Postby majiben » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:29 pm

Arnock wrote:unfortunately, due to paladin mechanics, pretty much anything they do to boost prot dps will buff ret a little too much for blizz's comfort



What I think they should do, is make reckoning a one-point 'holy windfury' where we have a chance on melee hit and, say, parrying an attack to instantly strike the target for holy damage Make it require a one-handed weapon so it won't be too usefull for ret
Adding holy damage raises threat faster than dps. What I think prot could use is a large increase in white damage via a talent. That would raise our dps without disportionally raising threat. Put something on it to ret to shun it for pvp. Would make a nice 11 point talent or replacement for reckoning.
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Postby Mavrix » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:36 pm

They could just do what was hoped for previously and just let RF amp the threat from white damage. Would make reckoning useful at the same time.
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Postby Vanifae » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:44 pm

I support increased white damage threat.
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:10 pm

I find it difficult to believe:
You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


Are you guys really buying this?
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Postby majiben » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:11 pm

moduspwnens wrote:I find it difficult to believe:
You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


Are you guys really buying this?
I could buy it in 10 mans, not so much 25 mans.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:14 pm

moduspwnens wrote:I find it difficult to believe:
You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


Are you guys really buying this?


No, he's trying to convince druids to take hit and expertise over stamina so that PVP gear isn't as good as PVE gear. That is some awfully tight tuning, and I don't think the variance of a 25 man raid allows for it. He also hinted that threat would be an issue too, though that I do kind of expect.

If it is tuned to such a level, we do have some issues that need to addressed and it makes the class wide ret nerfs look even dumber.
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:22 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I find it difficult to believe:
You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


Are you guys really buying this?


No, he's trying to convince druids to take hit and expertise over stamina so that PVP gear isn't as good as PVE gear. That is some awfully tight tuning, and I don't think the variance of a 25 man raid allows for it. He also hinted that threat would be an issue too, though that I do kind of expect.


Well threat, sure, but DPS? If we get to the point where the tank needs enough more DPS that it's worth gimping your tanking stats, I think it's time to put on the 2H and switch to Ret. I can't imagine a situation where you'd need a tank specialized player, but are saying to yourselves, "Dang, we're just putting out all the DPS we can. If only our tank could do more!"
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:31 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I find it difficult to believe:
You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


Are you guys really buying this?


No, he's trying to convince druids to take hit and expertise over stamina so that PVP gear isn't as good as PVE gear. That is some awfully tight tuning, and I don't think the variance of a 25 man raid allows for it. He also hinted that threat would be an issue too, though that I do kind of expect.


Well threat, sure, but DPS? If we get to the point where the tank needs enough more DPS that it's worth gimping your tanking stats, I think it's time to put on the 2H and switch to Ret. I can't imagine a situation where you'd need a tank specialized player, but are saying to yourselves, "Dang, we're just putting out all the DPS we can. If only our tank could do more!"

Yeah that's what I was getting at, there's no way they can tune a 25 man so tight that tank DPS would matter to that degree. Now, could you have a 1% enrage wipe? Sure, and technically a higher tank dps could have saved the day, then again you could have a tank drop below 200 health just as easy (essentially what he's arguing against) and live because he's wearing PVP gear. Basically I think he's full of it in this case.
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:34 pm

Heck, even if he's right, you'd probably be better off having your tank wear normal gear and your healers do more DPS from having to heal him less.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:43 pm

moduspwnens wrote:I find it difficult to believe:
You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


Are you guys really buying this?

Progression Brute kills were tuned close to this well.

We actually looked at going bear+bear+Expose Armor to get the last couple of percentage points of damage.

In a 10, it's far harder to tune it that tight, because you don't know if the second tank is protection (bad DPS) or feral/DK (good DPS) and you don't know if they have 2 healers or 3.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:17 pm

Knaughty wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I find it difficult to believe:
You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.


Are you guys really buying this?

Progression Brute kills were tuned close to this well.

We actually looked at going bear+bear+Expose Armor to get the last couple of percentage points of damage.

In a 10, it's far harder to tune it that tight, because you don't know if the second tank is protection (bad DPS) or feral/DK (good DPS) and you don't know if they have 2 healers or 3.


Yeah, but were you going to tell your tanks to sacrifice HP for a small amount of threat?
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