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Review my possible beta post re: Ret PVP

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Review my possible beta post re: Ret PVP

Postby uke » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:56 am

Hey folks, I was thinking of typing up a post to present to Blizzard either in the main or beta forum dealing with the concerns with Ret in specifically PVP. Thought I’d throw it in front of you all for constructive criticism. Anyway…ahem:


Subject: Ret concerns in Arena/PVP (what beyond burst damage?)

I would like it if a Blizzard blue poster might be able to give feedback on this (or at least acknowledge they are aware of these issues).

One of the biggest concerns among the retribution paladin community in regards to PVP tend to center around the fact that, unlike most of the other classes, we have very few tools to be effective in PVP besides inflicting mass amounts of burst damage. Especially concerning is when facing an opponent that is able to survive our burst (which will be easier to do once we hit high end lvl 80 hitpoint and resilience values), we are alarmingly ineffective in helping our team win. This is exacerbated exponentially when dealing with ranged opponents who are able to kite us, preventing us from even landing a blow.

How does one beat a high damage, melee bursting retribution paladin in PVP? The most common techniques are:

1. run him out of mana, if his mana pool is at zero, he cannot use his bursting abilities and is stuck with auto-attack
2. KITE! KITE! KITE! If the paladin cannot get to melee range, he cannot damage you. Mages, warlocks, and hunters are especially good at this.
3. For healers, survive the initial burst, and then just out heal his damage afterwards. Unless he is teamed with a warrior or hunter with a MS effect, it isn’t too difficult to out heal the ret pally’s damage, rendering him ineffective.

Now, the somewhat skilled retribution PVP paladin will do the following to compensate for the above disadvantages:

- Pre 3.0, we could only rely on relatively large mana pools and replenishment via Spiritual Attunement to keep from going OOM. At level 80, now, we have Divine Plea and JotW to help, which is indeed an improvement. However, with the recent nerf to JotW, will it be enough to prevent going OOM in a chaotic PVP environment? I know that the standard rotation of Crusader Strike, Judgement, and Divine Storm can be maintained indefinitely, however in PVP, you’re going to be spamming Cleanse to get the warlock dots off, spamming BoFreedom to deal with snares, Consecrate to find stealthing druids/rogues, and of course healing wherever we can. Add in being hit with mana drains further compounds the issue. I know that we shouldn’t be able to spam everything w/o having to worry going OOM, however counter that with the fact that we’re still the easiest *melee* DPS class to bring to no resources. Warriors and rogues can run out of energy/rage, but it is quick to come back. We don’t have this luxury.

- For kiters, we have a few tools, but I feel that this is still by far our biggest weakness. Among the other melee classes, rogues have their teleport + numerous slowing poisons, warriors can charge to close the distance as can druids, and deathknights can pull their opponent toward them.

For paladins, our only real anti-kite tools is Repentance, which I feel is on too long a cooldown to be effective vs. mage, hunters, etc. We also have BoFreedom and PoJ, but again I feel these are not sufficient once our burst has been toned down.


How the above few issues tie into my post is this. For a retribution paladin facing a ranged, healing opponents that are able to take numerous measures to keep us out of melee range (cc, kiting, etc), our greatest weapon is, when we DO finally close on them, is to inflict massive amounts of damage in a short time. However, Blizz feels we are too bursty. I can understand and acknowledge the need for tweaking as needed.

However, when our burst is greatly toned down, what recourse do we have for healers and ranged dps when 1. what little time we do have in melee range isn’t sufficient to bring them down and 2. healers can easily outheal our burst (not at lvl 70, true, but at lvl 80 with S5+ gear on)?

Wall of text aside (wow, this went longer than I thought!), I’d like to throw a few ideas to discuss:

You want to dial down our burst? Fine. However if that is the case, we need the tools to be viable when our burst isn’t able to kill our opponent. (bolded for emphasis)

- give us similar tools as other melee dps’ers to deal with kiters. Either a shorter cooldown on Repentance, an on-use dash ability tied to PoJ (or just up the % run speed on PoJ), or maybe a slow effect we can inflict (like spamstring) maybe tied to Crusader Strike?

- Aside from Enh Shamans, we’re the only melee class that, when we get to empty on resources, we’re pretty much stuck there (mana). Have test been done on a lvl 80 arena level to see how mana longevity is? PVP/Arena has many different mana constraints than PVE raiding does. Not to mention, we are the most vulnerable vs. mana burning teams due to our tiny mana pool, that I don't think even a Divine Plea can make up for one mana burn.

- Do something with our bubble. I’ve read many times that most of our nerfs rotate around the 12 seconds of god-mode we have. What people don’t consider, though, is that for the next 4 minutes and 48 seconds, we’re sitting ducks. The *good* PVP’ers (not the button mashing scrubs who yell “NERF RET” when they just stand there getting smashed) simply avoid us during the bubble duration, and then wreck us once it wears off.

If Blizzard doesn’t want us killing everything that moves in the first 5 seconds of a fight (which is a reasonable request), then we need to be able to perform at a viable level after those 5 seconds. I’m not saying I want god-mode all the time, just to have a chance vs skilled PVP’ers who are able to exploit our glaring weaknesses, leaving us with no way to counter.

Thanks, and I appreciate any feedback.
Last edited by uke on Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Corman » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:12 am

Its good and I think you might have something there.... if repentence was up WAY more.... it breaks on damage.... it has diminishing returns.... it has a mana cost.... but maybe lessen the duration of HoJ a tad but several reduce the cd on repentence (not avail to holy or prot) and .... well... you might just have a workable ret, for pvp at least... rep and HoJ aren't used THAT much... at least yet.... in PvE.... rep might though but just make certain you can only rep 1 target to prevent rep rep rep for CC in PvE and its good? No?
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Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:18 am

I just think it's marvelous that you used 'exacerbated exponentially' in a sentence.
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Postby majiben » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:33 am

I would like you to mention how vulnerable ret paladins (most vulnerable of any mana uses besides prot paladins whih aren't going to be seen in the arena) are to a Mana burn team. Having such small mana pools will likely mean that divine plea will restore less than the mana from one burn. I heard someone else mention that something less clunky than str=-> intell talentwould help increase ret's ability to weather burns and would increase divine plea's regen.


Also consider changing your bolded portion to italics. It looks less threatening on the O forums.
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Postby uke » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:36 am

Hey, do you have to be in the beta to post on the beta forums? Is so, could someone post this up for me, as I cannot :cry: .

I'll stick it on the official forums when I get home from work, though.

I'll edit my OP with the mana burn concerns as well.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:20 am

I think everyone's focusing on the wrong problem. We see the effect of problems, and we choose to focus on them.

The real problem is that retribution utility, defensive in nature, is less effective than offensive utility. Further, everyone we do is dispellable with little protection. We also have no way to pierce dispel resistance. Almost every class in the game has a method of offense, defensive, or personal magic debuff removal. This means in almost every single arena game a retribution paladin can face a class capable of making their abilities void. To compound on this, defensive utility is not as strong as offensive in base terms since defensive is reactionary. If defensive utility were used offensively, then usually that ability is wasted as the opponent may target someone else.

The effect of this problem is what most complaints are about - too kitable, unaffective, too bursty, homogony, etc. These are all valid issues caused by the problem. Paladin is viewed as a defensive hybrid in pvp where its defensive abilities are not effective with the current system. The key would not be to give paladin offensive abilities, but strengthen their defensive ones to where they must be dealt with the same as how incapacitate, silence, stun, root, snare, etc effects must be dealt with.

For instance, take the hand spells. These spells are all easily removable by several classes. Hand of Freedom does not prevent stuns, which makes Divine Purpose much less strong. If you use HoF to remove a snare, the ally can be stunned. If you use it to remove a stun, then the opponent can just use an incapacitate, stun, fear, etc. Furthermore, you can no longer use HoF in the instances you want to originally use it. Hand of salvation does nothing for PvP. Hand of Protection is very strong, easily removable, and situationally useless. Hand of Sacrifice can mitigate damage on an ally, but lacks efficiency since the paladin is then in trouble from a switch - which will be an obvious line of reasoning.

Then, for personal defensive abilities, the paladin only has Divine Shield. While this is a great spell, it's "all or nothing" and can only realistically be used once in a combat.

The solution I would state?
-Remove the dispel mechanic.
-Dispel reduces the duration of an effect by 50%.
-Dispel Resist reduces this by their percentage
*e.g., 50% dispel resistance reduces the time lost by 50%, meaning a dispel would be 25% duration off.
-Increase the strength of Hand spells.
-(a) Change Hand of Feedom to grant a high amount of stun duration reduction
-(b) Change Hand of Sacrifice to transfer 75% the damage absorbed
-(c) Change Hand of Salvation to reduce damage by 15%
-(d) Change Hand of Protection to reduce magic damage by 25%. Increase to 12 seconds.
- Change Divine Shield to Immunity to all spells and debuffs.
- Remove Forbearance from Divine Shield
*This allows for Divine Shield to stack with Divine Protection or HoP
- Move Sacred Shield to Protection as a 1 point tier 3 protection talent
*This forces holy to choose between retribution and protection
- Introduce Lv80 cooldown base ability Supreme Judgments


Supreme Judgment
Level 80
Cooldown: 2 minutes
Duration: 15 seconds
When active, the paladin merges his inner fire with the channeled light.
-Any opponent affected by Judgment of Light is healed, 100% of the healing received is shared among 3 members in the paladin's party
-Any opponent that expends mana, power, rage, or energy, grants the same amount is shared among 3 members of the paladins party
-Whenever an opponent is affected by Judgment of Justice, their run speed is reduced by twice their previous bonus.
*e.g. 16% reduction on boar's speed, 60% reduction on travel form, 120% reduction on sprint.

PvE Implications:
-Self-Healing Bosses will become easier.
*Suggestion: Cap JoL bonus to where it cannot exceed 20% the party member's health.
-Bosses expend mana frequently.
*Suggestion: Just make boss abilities use 0-1 mana like Felmyst.
-Movement Reduction could snare some boss fight adds with 200% run speed.
*Suggestion: No change is necessary. Usually this is a downside.
*This solves some of the protection paladin single taunt issue on certain mobs by giving them a snare/root.

PvP Implications:
-The paladin's reactionary abilities now become strong enough to counter the damage already done by offensive utility.
-The paladin infringes on no other class's unique abilities.
-The changes only buff or modify a paladin's pre-existing abilities.

Additional implications (ie, my ramblings):
-There is much distress among protection paladins that LoH is inferior to Last Stand due to the relative Cool Down. By changing Divine Shield to magic and debuff immunity, this gives paladins a situationally different tool (that already exists) on a longer cooldown.

-Protection paladins received their 11 point talent while still making Sacred Shield available to holy and retribution.

-It's possible to reduce Hand of Protection duration to where the paladin can be damage before hearthing
*Bubble Hearth remains due to overlapping Divine Shield with Hand of Protection

-Paladin's new Divine Shield infringes on Anti-Magic Zone from Death Knights slightly, but remains unique with debuff immunity and self-only.

-Paladin can no longer become immune to everything and "win or bust" in pvp situations. However, paladin gains more utility at a cost.

-Paladins are not unstoppable even when stacking cooldown abilities. Divine Protection with Divine Shield still grants a slower swing speed with 50% physical damage vulnerability.

-Divine Shield is still immune to all dispel effects except Mass Dispel which reduces the duration by 50% as normal.
*Counter-point: Paladins no longer lose all their strength to Mass Dispel.

-Supreme Judgment (of Light) is still affected by Healing Reduction effects. Any player who receives a portion of the healing has his share then reduced from his portion.
*e.g., an enemy under the effect is healed for 1000. Each member of the paladin's party receives 333 healing if they are all hurt. A member under the effect of Mortal Strike then reduces his by 50% to 166 healing.
-Supreme Judgment (Of Light) grants the Healing Done threat to the person doing the initial healing so that paladin threat in PvE is not artificially inflated.

-Supreme Judgment (Of Wisdom) could be incredibly difficult to implement.
*Suggestion: Change the effect to double or triple the effects of Replenishment on the raid group.
*Suggestion: Change the effect to increase the mana cost of offensive spells by 50%

-New Glyphs can be made that focus around these new abilities paving way for future innovation.

-The dispel change has no effect in PvE. The change is simply for PvP in the same way weapon skills differ for PvP.
-Dispel is brought in line with all other previous "resistance" abilities such as Stun Resistance.

Final Thoughts:
None of these abilities have been tested. It could be the case that Durations and effects will have to be tweaked. For example, doubling the effect of Replenishment for 15 seconds every 2 minutes could simply be overpowered in PvE. Supreme Judgment might need to be a 3 minute cooldown to compensate for its strength. These are not the merits of the suggestion. These are simply variables that should be tweaked. I would encourage all feedback to be long, encompassing, well-thought out, and not to simply focus on any one singular line, but the idea that line pertains to as a whole.
Last edited by Elsie on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby uke » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:28 am

Elsie, you need to post this on the beta forums. Heck, post both of ours! :P
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Postby Elsie » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:30 am

uke wrote:Elsie, you need to post this on the beta forums. Heck, post both of ours! :P

The tone of yours is more aggressive than I would post. Furthmore, I cannot post on the beta forums. The best way to get a response is to analyze the situation, state the problem, state the issues that problem is causing, produce possible solutions, and then analyze the effects of those solutions on other aspects of the game.

Yelling kite kite kite or 'Oh yeah? Fine then.' This is not to slam you. I'm just trying to convey that your post would get more attention if you typed your ideas more professionally.

For instance, I didn't add in my post that I would've increased repentance to 25 yards. This would have involved having to directly compare paladins to Mage (glyphed blink) and hunters (40+ yard range) and more. This leads to people viewing your argument as a strawman.
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Postby uke » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:46 am

Elsie wrote:
uke wrote:Elsie, you need to post this on the beta forums. Heck, post both of ours! :P

The tone of yours is more aggressive than I would post. Furthmore, I cannot post on the beta forums. The best way to get a response is to analyze the situation, state the problem, state the issues that problem is causing, produce possible solutions, and then analyze the effects of those solutions on other aspects of the game.

Yelling kite kite kite or 'Oh yeah? Fine then.' This is not to slam you. I'm just trying to convey that your post would get more attention if you typed your ideas more professionally.

For instance, I didn't add in my post that I would've increased repentance to 25 yards. This would have involved having to directly compare paladins to Mage (glyphed blink) and hunters (40+ yard range) and more. This leads to people viewing your argument as a strawman.


Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

I'll go over it some more. I think I'll also post a modified version on retpaladin.com later tonight to get feedback from there as well. Keep an eye out if you're a member on that site.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:51 am

uke wrote:
Elsie wrote:
uke wrote:Elsie, you need to post this on the beta forums. Heck, post both of ours! :P

The tone of yours is more aggressive than I would post. Furthmore, I cannot post on the beta forums. The best way to get a response is to analyze the situation, state the problem, state the issues that problem is causing, produce possible solutions, and then analyze the effects of those solutions on other aspects of the game.

Yelling kite kite kite or 'Oh yeah? Fine then.' This is not to slam you. I'm just trying to convey that your post would get more attention if you typed your ideas more professionally.

For instance, I didn't add in my post that I would've increased repentance to 25 yards. This would have involved having to directly compare paladins to Mage (glyphed blink) and hunters (40+ yard range) and more. This leads to people viewing your argument as a strawman.


Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

I'll go over it some more. I think I'll also post a modified version on retpaladin.com later tonight to get feedback from there as well. Keep an eye out if you're a member on that site.


Elsie is right on about the tone, but beyond that I find that the best policy is to simply not suggest possible solutions.

Blizzard doesn't want to hear about this new great ability you came up with that solves all our problems and how long you took to think of a name for it. What they DO want to hear is where the class is having trouble and/or is broken. Suggesting fixes merely clouds the issue. The important part is clearly outlining the PROBLEM and then letting Blizzard decide if it is indeed a problem and then coming up with a solution themselves.
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Postby uke » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:02 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
uke wrote:
Elsie wrote:
uke wrote:Elsie, you need to post this on the beta forums. Heck, post both of ours! :P

The tone of yours is more aggressive than I would post. Furthmore, I cannot post on the beta forums. The best way to get a response is to analyze the situation, state the problem, state the issues that problem is causing, produce possible solutions, and then analyze the effects of those solutions on other aspects of the game.

Yelling kite kite kite or 'Oh yeah? Fine then.' This is not to slam you. I'm just trying to convey that your post would get more attention if you typed your ideas more professionally.

For instance, I didn't add in my post that I would've increased repentance to 25 yards. This would have involved having to directly compare paladins to Mage (glyphed blink) and hunters (40+ yard range) and more. This leads to people viewing your argument as a strawman.


Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

I'll go over it some more. I think I'll also post a modified version on retpaladin.com later tonight to get feedback from there as well. Keep an eye out if you're a member on that site.


Elsie is right on about the tone, but beyond that I find that the best policy is to simply not suggest possible solutions.

Blizzard doesn't want to hear about this new great ability you came up with that solves all our problems and how long you took to think of a name for it. What they DO want to hear is where the class is having trouble and/or is broken. Suggesting fixes merely clouds the issue. The important part is clearly outlining the PROBLEM and then letting Blizzard decide if it is indeed a problem and then coming up with a solution themselves.


In that case I might just chop off the second part giving possible solutions. Not 100% sure I want to do that, but I'll think about it.
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Postby uke » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:03 pm

I'm still completely open to any and all suggestions, btw. Whatever you think it will take for GC to notice and actually consider what is said.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:27 pm

Ghostcrawler has posted previously stating people whine about problems without giving any indication on how to fix them. I read that as "make suggestions" on how to solve the problem.

It's probably better not to give a definitive solution, such as Supreme Judgment, but a more general idea.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:06 pm

Elsie wrote:Ghostcrawler has posted previously stating people whine about problems without giving any indication on how to fix them. I read that as "make suggestions" on how to solve the problem.

It's probably better not to give a definitive solution, such as Supreme Judgment, but a more general idea.


What I mean is, try not to sketch out new abilities or anything like that. If you say "well if we had an interrupt, we wouldn't have this problem" then that's not the same thing as going "this new spell I made called HOLY DIVINE WTFPWN SMITE fixes everything for these reasons..."
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Postby uke » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:31 pm

I think I'm going to change some of the aggressive wording in my original post, and post it on retpaladin.com for further critique. I'll post the link up here when it's up.
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