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One solution to rule them all!

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:49 am

Levantine wrote:I see. Thunder Clap had a 15% AP coeff last time I looked, but it'd still beat Devastate in threat.

(I agree with katamai that, due to JotJ's position in t10 this discussion is of limited relevance, but I wouldn't want to leave an inaccuracy here)

I got that number from beta some time ago, wouldn't be suprised at all if it'd changed. Looking about I've found 20/15% and a decent report of 0.1165/0.12 so far. I'll have to check beta again, but we're still on ~4.1k TCs at worst :)
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Postby TokenElf » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:07 am

My big thing is that this talent sucks for the point cost.

1 target, 20% attack speed on a judgement.

I'll just have a warrior do it. If they don't want to, a druid can.

I'd rather have pursuit of justice.
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Postby Levantine » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:11 am

TokenElf wrote:My big thing is that this talent sucks for the point cost.

1 target, 20% attack speed on a judgement.

I'll just have a warrior do it. If they don't want to, a druid can.

I'd rather have pursuit of justice.


Fail.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxVA0uMteIRGoEo00b

Not getting Judgements of the Just is inexcusable if you plan on being a main-tank.
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Postby Glam » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:22 am

I had originally posted elsewhere to buff the seals and judgements in the 1 handed specialization talent, but I definitely like this idea much better. Seems to me that you have it covered for both prot and holy Kat. I encourage you to run with this and post it on the beta forums.
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Postby Bobness » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:23 am

Glam wrote:I had originally posted elsewhere to buff the seals and judgements in the 1 handed specialization talent, but I definitely like this idea much better. Seems to me that you have it covered for both prot and holy Kat. I encourage you to run with this and post it on the beta forums.


Whilst this solution does indeed help prot out...the solution for Holy is nowhere near enough

1,000 [AP] 1,300 [SP] given a 1.6 Ws SOR will give you approx 80 DPS (No Sotp)

Add 40% additional damage to SOR gives you about 110 DPS (No Sotp)

Add Holy Shock & JOR into the rotation & it's still utterly pitiful.


You only need to see the synergy that Prot & Ret gets for attacking multiple Targets to see the gap widen even further as we level.
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Postby Rhî » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:27 am

If everybody would make this suggestion in game as a suggestion, it would by far more helpful than a single thread in a beta forum. I'm not saying, do not make a post about it in a beta forum. I'm saying, everyone should fill out the suggestion form in game.
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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:29 am

Bobness wrote:Whilst this solution does indeed help prot out...the solution for Holy is nowhere near enough

1,000 [AP] 1,300 [SP] given a 1.6 Ws SOR will give you approx 80 DPS (No Sotp)

Add 40% additional damage to SOR gives you about 110 DPS (No Sotp)

Add Holy Shock & JOR into the rotation & it's still utterly pitiful.


You only need to see the synergy that Prot & Ret gets for attacking multiple Targets to see the gap widen even further as we level.


40% is still a nice increase from what they have now. While i agree that it's not the end-all solution for holy, my primary goal was prot and holy was an afterthought.

Also don't forget that with changes to Seals now, this 40% increase is also a 40% Judgment increase.

EDIT: I would gladly post this in the beta forums/beta test realm but i don't have the key. Would appreciate it if someone who thinks it's a good idea could do it for me :)
Last edited by Katamai on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bobness » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:29 am

Rhî wrote:If everybody would make this suggestion in game as a suggestion, it would by far more helpful than a single thread in a beta forum. I'm not saying, do not make a post about it in a beta forum. I'm saying, everyone should fill out the suggestion form in game.


Indeed but as I say this does not help Holy to anywhere near the same degree as Prot... it still needs fleshing out a bit more first in order to be
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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:45 am

Bobness wrote:Indeed but as I say this does not help Holy to anywhere near the same degree as Prot... it still needs fleshing out a bit more first in order to be
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Check the first post. I edited the holy change. Damage increased by 10/20/30/40/50%, JoR included in the equation.

Don't forget that Holy will have ShoR (as lame as it may be) and Holy Shock does decent dmg. It will give them enough to make soloing viable again without turning them into DPS sub-class (like shockadins were in TBC).
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Postby Bobness » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:00 am

Meh.. Look at a Holy Priest DPS Rotation

Mind Blast/SWP/Smite/Wand/Smite/Wand/SWD

Sprinkle Holy Fire & Holy Nova into the mix..that's alot more DPS than Holy.

Shor is of no real use to Holy.

Increasing Judgement Damage helps quite a bit, still it requires something else that might be outside this solution.

Prot part works nicely though.
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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:05 am

Bobness wrote:Meh.. Look at a Holy Priest DPS Rotation

Mind Blast/SWP/Smite/Wand/Smite/Wand/SWD

Sprinkle Holy Fire & Holy Nova into the mix..that's alot more DPS than Holy.

Shor is of no real use to Holy.

Increasing Judgement Damage helps quite a bit, still it requires something else that might be outside this solution.

Prot part works nicely though.


Well prot/holy don't really have much choice with their rotation and that wouldn't change unless they add a new offensive spell.

Holy could rotate JoR/Consecration/HS/SS with SoR up (not in that order) and would do respectable DPS especially once target drops below 20%.

Sprinkle HW and Exo in the mix when there's undead around (and from what i saw, there's quite a few in Northrend) and they should be fine.

Maybe a holy paladin would bring more insight into this?
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Postby Bobness » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:21 am

Prot SOV/JOV/Hotr/Shor/Holy Shield > Holy SOR/JOR/Holy Shock/Shor by some margin
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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:25 am

Bobness wrote:Prot SOV/JOV/Hotr/Shor/Holy Shield > Holy SOR/JOR/Holy Shock/Shor by some margin


I partly agree but... holy can spam consecration, prot can't.

Also i wouldn't count Holy Shield as an offensive spell. Unless i'm AoE farming it doesn't proc too much. The fact that prot can eaily AoE farm is another matter though.

Don't forget that prot dps SHOULD be higher than holy since our main role is tanking and we generate tps through dps. Holy on the other hand is a healing spec and buffs to their DPS are intended for soloing, not any sort of serious dps. Our primary role abilities should > their soloing abilities/dps.
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Postby Bobness » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:34 am

Katamai wrote:
Bobness wrote:Prot SOV/JOV/Hotr/Shor/Holy Shield > Holy SOR/JOR/Holy Shock/Shor by some margin


I partly agree but... holy can spam consecration, prot can't.

Also i wouldn't count Holy Shield as an offensive spell. Unless i'm AoE farming it doesn't proc too much. The fact that prot can eaily AoE farm is another matter though.

Don't forget that prot dps SHOULD be higher than holy since our main role is tanking and we generate tps through dps. Holy on the other hand is a healing spec and buffs to their DPS are intended for soloing, not any sort of serious dps. Our primary role abilities should > their soloing abilities/dps.


Again true.. but given

1) Mob attacks with 2 Sec speed.. you have 50% BR with Holy shield up.. Holy shield is proccing a lot.

2) Prot Paladin DPS is artificially low due to RF co-efficients.

I didn't even mention melee damage which is not now an insignificant portion of our DPS.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:41 am

A large part of the issue is that holy paladins aren't investing a great deal in damage talent wise. Holy Shock, a fair amount of crit (which doesn't scale with the primary seal) and some spellpower esentially. (Prots invests a fair bit in increased dps, and tps by extension.)

In essence what holy needs is increases in baseline, untalented dps, which immediately effects retribution. The only solution is to work in dps into existing holy talents.

I'm still not sure theres a valid reason to do so, certainly not if dual specs are in the works. But thats another thread.
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