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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:03 am

Mazater wrote:All the things mentioned above have little to no effect on bossfights whatsoever.
Warriors wont be using TC in their normal attack rotation if somebody else keeps up the debuff(since it nerfs their TPS afaik) on the boss.

The druid "bonus" doesnt do anything useful since you don't usually kite bosses.

Yes, I know, there are trash mobs, 5-man instances and whatnot, but I frankly don't care about them and they're ment to be doable without superawesome skillz etc.

Something new to Judgements of the Just would be very nice, yes, but in all honesty, it should be then increased from 2 to 3 talent points.


Having a DPS warrior keep TC up is stupid since it nerfs their DPS while it actually increases prot's TPS.

As for not caring about 5 man... our AoE advantage got taken since warriors were QQing about how hard it was for them to tank 5 mans so don't underestimate them (yes i know that's not the whole reason but did play its part).

And no, it doesn't need to be increased to 3 pts. Just compare Redoubt to Shield mastery. While Redoubt has a secondary effect, it's 3 pts and arguably worse than SM for warriors which is 2 pts.

One could argue that warrior's equivalent of JotJ in their prot tree is better than JotJ. Damage shield is not situational like JotJ which makes it universally better than what we have. Don't forget that "someone else can keep it up" argument can go both ways. Especially since it's so easy and so useful for warriors to pick Imp TC as well as so beneficial for their TPS rotation.
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Postby mazater » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:08 am

Katamai wrote:Having a DPS warrior keep TC up is even worse than a prot warrior since it nerfs their DPS more than it does prot's TPS.

That's not quite what I meant.

I was assuming you have a paladin tank keeping up the attack speed reduction debuff with judgements and healing/dps'ing inbetween.

But anyhoo, not like it matters that much.
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Postby Levantine » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:10 am

Pretty sure Thunder Clap doesn't increase a Prot Warrior's TPS.
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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:13 am

Levantine wrote:Pretty sure Thunder Clap doesn't increase a Prot Warrior's TPS.


From what i was told by our warrior tanks, they are loving it.
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Postby Levantine » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:15 am

No doubt, it's much more effective from a threat standpoint now that it scales, but I still doubt that it does more threat than a Devastate, Shield Slam or Revenge will do.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:18 am

Levantine wrote:Pretty sure Thunder Clap doesn't increase a Prot Warrior's TPS.

Lets say you have 4k ap and using a fast wep for HS, before armour and crit (functionally similar crit rate):

TC: (300+0.2*4000)*1.3*1.1*1.1*0.9*1.45*1.43*1.85 = 5973.65 threat
Deva: (((229+4000/14*2.4)/2)+505)*1.1*1.1*0.9*1.45*1.43 = 2173.04 threat

Now you might want to keep devastating in order to gain SaB procs (this doesn't actually increase tps, but still), but if you reach that third gcd after the SS (which you will 49% of the time), all you'd be procing is a rage free SS as it's coming off cd anyhow. Given all the -rage and rage procs available its unlikely rps is a bigger issue than tps, so you want to TC, increasing tps..

Mmmm, acronyms.
Last edited by ziggyunderslashone on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Stilgarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:19 am

Levantine wrote:No doubt, it's much more effective from a threat standpoint now that it scales, but I still doubt that it does more threat than a Devastate, Shield Slam or Revenge will do.


Thought Devastate stopped being as effective once the sunders had been stacked ?

tbh really really rusty as not played my Warrior since I rolled my Pally months ago, not even used his free respec yet ;)

Do like the suggestion though might be worth someone putting it in the beta forums unless another alternative could be found.
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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:19 am

Levantine wrote:No doubt, it's much more effective from a threat standpoint now that it scales, but I still doubt that it does more threat than a Devastate, Shield Slam or Revenge will do.


While that might be true (SS/Devastate/Revenge part) it certainly doesn't hurt them like it did before and in situations where you have more than 1 target, it's a definite tps boost.

I just don't see anything wrong with buffing JotJ the way i suggested. It certainly wouldn't make us OP and this whole JotJ vs IW vs TC discussion seems a bit pointless to me.

JotJ is lackluster for what it offers and its place in the tree and this way we would also fix seal/judgment issues without having to go the 1H/2H seals route.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:23 am

Katamai wrote:JotJ is lackluster for what it offers and its place in the tree and this way we would also fix seal/judgment issues without having to go the 1H/2H seals route.

It's an elegant solution, and quite honestly of all the suggestions I've heard, the one I'd prefer.

I suspect the fact that they'd want a solution that works for holy as well (and having the same solution twice isn't as elegant) would be a concern though. Not that I personally feel holy dps is worth sacrificing balance for, but it was a stated goal.
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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:28 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Katamai wrote:JotJ is lackluster for what it offers and its place in the tree and this way we would also fix seal/judgment issues without having to go the 1H/2H seals route.

It's an elegant solution, and quite honestly of all the suggestions I've heard, the one I'd prefer.

I suspect the fact that they'd want a solution that works for holy as well (and having the same solution twice isn't as elegant) would be a concern though. Not that I personally feel holy dps is worth sacrificing balance for, but it was a stated goal.


Judgements of the Pure
Your Judgement spells increase your casting and melee haste by 2/4/6/8/10% for 1 min and damage caused by your Seal of Righteousness by 5/10/20/40%.

Not a direct copy but should work. It is also limited to SoR since that should be Holy's DPS seal. Avoids 1h/2h distinction but also limits talent's spectrum. Melee haste already present in the talent also works in synergy with SoR's "dmg on hit" aspect.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:30 am

Ah thats true, divide out the seals. That would fit perfectly.
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Postby mazater » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:32 am

Katamai wrote: this whole JotJ vs IW vs TC discussion seems a bit pointless to me.

Not at all pointless.

If you want to buff/nerf talent 'x' you have to compare it with other talents that have the same or similiar effect and see how it works out, if it works out badly, that can't be good, hence the comparing of JotJ IW and TC.

Also, discussion forums are, surprisingly, for discussion, not for "THIS R GOOD, GIEF PLIX" kind of 1 page long threads.

But anyhoo, the suggestion is rather valid, though I think that for the sake of balance it should be 3 points, like the other tanking classes have it.
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Postby Levantine » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:34 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Levantine wrote:Pretty sure Thunder Clap doesn't increase a Prot Warrior's TPS.

Lets say you have 4k ap and using a fast wep for HS, before armour and crit (functionally similar crit rate):

TC: (300+0.2*4000)*1.3*1.1*1.1*0.9*1.45*1.43*1.85 = 5973.65 threat
Deva: (((229+4000/14*2.4)/2)+505)*1.1*1.1*0.9*1.45*1.43 = 2173.04 threat

Now you might want to keep devastating in order to gain SaB procs (this doesn't actually increase tps, but still), but if you reach that third gcd after the SS (which you will 34% of the time), all you'd be procing is a rage free SS as it's coming off cd anyhow. Given all the -rage and rage procs available its unlikely rps is a bigger issue than tps, so you want to TC, increasing tps..

Mmmm, acronyms.


I see. Thunder Clap had a 15% AP coeff last time I looked, but it'd still beat Devastate in threat.

Anyway, with my coeff Thunderclap comes to ~305 Threat Per Rage, while Devastate is ~241.

Hmm. That's not what I was expecting either. Although Devastate does have the chance to proc Shield Slam.
Last edited by Levantine on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Katamai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:37 am

Mazater wrote:
Katamai wrote: this whole JotJ vs IW vs TC discussion seems a bit pointless to me.

Not at all pointless.

If you want to buff/nerf talent 'x' you have to compare it with other talents that have the same or similiar effect and see how it works out, if it works out badly, that can't be good, hence the comparing of JotJ IW and TC.

Also, discussion forums are, surprisingly, for discussion, not for "THIS R GOOD, GIEF PLIX" kind of 1 page long threads.

But anyhoo, the suggestion is rather valid, though I think that for the sake of balance it should be 3 points, like the other tanking classes have it.


Yes but if you want to broaden the discussion you can take it up a notch and apply it to other talents which turns it into a QQ/flame match ;)
Don't forget that just like us, Blizzard values where talents are placed in their respective trees so that part of a discussion can't be avoided either. It's not really fair to compare a Tier 1 talent that boosts the effectiveness of a baseline utility to a Tier 10 one that just catches up to what our warrior brethren already have. Druid comparison is more valid though but there's still a difference of 2 tiers and a secondary effect, however useful/less it may be.

And i agree, make it 3 pts but also make Redoubt 2 pts to balance it in regards to Shield Mastery. Deal? ;)

Don't get me wrong, i appreciate a good discussion. The more kinks and flaws we work out, the bigger chance of having Blizzard actually listen to our suggestions.
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Postby Bobness » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:47 am

Katamai wrote:Judgements of the Pure
Your Judgement spells increase your casting and melee haste by 2/4/6/8/10% for 1 min and damage caused by your Seal of Righteousness by 5/10/20/40%.

Not a direct copy but should work. It is also limited to SoR since that should be Holy's DPS seal. Avoids 1h/2h distinction but also limits talent's spectrum. Melee haste already present in the talent also works in synergy with SoR's "dmg on hit" aspect.


On average 70 Holy gear this would increase SOR damage by approx 10% from the preceeding "Nerf".

40% Sounds a lot but it's 40% of SFA atm.
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