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Getting Blizzard out of the Seal/Judge Hole

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Getting Blizzard out of the Seal/Judge Hole

Postby Bobness » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:12 am

The whole Seal/Judge tweaking scenario has really yanked my chain so I wondered if there was a really simple solution to this whole mess.

It seems to me that the three Paladin specs will primarily focus in the following way.

Holy Paladins = Intellect
Prot Paladins = Stamina
Ret Paladins = Strength

There are obviously secondary considerations but I don't believe they are important for this to Work.

We have four Active Seals:-

SOB
SOV
SOR
SOC

Obviously %'s are open for debate but really why not just scale them in the following way

SOB/SOC = %Strength x Multiplier
SOV = %Stamina
SOR = %Intellect

Judgements would scale in the same way but with an additional muliplier where required

At some point there must come diminishing returns.... but really couldn't it just be this simple

As to Wisdom/Light (Utility Seals)

SOL = %Stamina + %Strength
SOW = %Strength + %Intellect

Maintain Wisdom/Light Judgements at a standing %

I'm struggling to see any major flaws in this thinking... am I missing something ?
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Re: Getting Blizzard out of the Seal/Judge Hole

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:20 am

Bobness wrote:I'm struggling to see any major flaws in this thinking... am I missing something ?

One thing: It's two weeks to release, and they can't make changes that big this late.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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Postby Ranluka » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:21 am

Personally I think seals/judges were the last thing they shoulda nerfed.... they wanted to lower Ret PAlly Burst... instead they are lowering sustained damage for all 3 specs. What sense does that make? Something in ret needs to be tuned, this ain't it.
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Postby Trueth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:28 am

This could work fine at end-game, but not so sure about leveling. It would encourage paladins to stack Int as they level.

Now that there are not multiple levels of seals, we need to make sure the seals work all the way through the leveling process. Unfortunately, righteousness is now our only damage seal until level 65. So, the only way I see making this a holy-specific seal is to add a second rank that becomes active at level 65.

The idea of spec-specific seals has merit, though the scaling might be more consistent with normal Blizzard scaling if it was:

SoB/SoC: AP only
SoV: AP&SP
SoR: SP only

Wisdom and Light could stay both.


The other problem I see is that Ret gains the largest advantage by far from it's Stat -> SP conversion talent, Sheath. Either Prot and Holy should get a buffed amount or Sheath should grant less SP.

How about this?

Sheath of Light: Grants 10/20/30% AP as +healing plus HOT affect on crit
Guarded By the Light: Grants 15/30/45% Stam as +SP plus crit bonus
Holy Guidance: Grants 4/8/12/16/20% Int as +SP and +AP

Then, return Seals and Judgements back to their former self.
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Re: Getting Blizzard out of the Seal/Judge Hole

Postby Bobness » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:29 am

Knaughty wrote:
Bobness wrote:I'm struggling to see any major flaws in this thinking... am I missing something ?

One thing: It's two weeks to release, and they can't make changes that big this late.


Paladin History says this aint so...
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Postby Bobness » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:31 am

Trueth wrote:This could work fine at end-game, but not so sure about leveling. It would encourage paladins to stack Int as they level.

Now that there are not multiple levels of seals, we need to make sure the seals work all the way through the leveling process. Unfortunately, righteousness is now our only damage seal until level 65. So, the only way I see making this a holy-specific seal is to add a second rank that becomes active at level 65.

The idea of spec-specific seals has merit, though the scaling might be more consistent with normal Blizzard scaling if it was:

SoB/SoC: AP only
SoV: AP&SP
SoR: SP only

Wisdom and Light could stay both.


The other problem I see is that Ret gains the largest advantage by far from it's Stat -> SP conversion talent, Sheath. Either Prot and Holy should get a buffed amount or Sheath should grant less SP.

How about this?

Sheath of Light: Grants 10/20/30% AP as +healing plus HOT affect on crit
Guarded By the Light: Grants 15/30/45% Stam as +SP plus crit bonus
Holy Guidance: Grants 4/8/12/16/20% Int as +SP and +AP

Then, return Seals and Judgements back to their former self.


SOC available at level 20... when specced
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Postby Belarkan » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:34 am

Rogue: The question is, what is paladin paladin ?
Warrior: The question is, who cares ?

Back on the topic, ever seen Blizard acting rational with paladins ?
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Postby Bobness » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:17 am

The current mechanics of [%AP] + [%SP] seem to me to be fundamentally flawed by virtue of the fact that:-


Ret Paladin [AP] + [SP] will always be greater than Holy Paladin [AP] + [SP]
Ret Paladin [AP] + [SP] will always be greater than Prot Paladin [AP] + [SP]

It doesn't matter how you tweak it under the current system one or two of the three specs will lose out & that will never be a Ret Paladin.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:23 am

Simple:

Remove Sheath of Light, its causing all sorts of problems.
Make it healing spellpower only, and increase all paladin AP coeffs by 30% of the spelldamage coeff. (no change for ret, boost for prot and holy)

Then you can increase the spelldamage coeff to make a seal better for Holy (and a bit better for prot) without affecting its ret damage. The same for all the different abilities! Much better than the current situation where increasing either coeff buffs ret.

That way SoR will be mostly Spelldamage, but some AP for leveling / Prot.
SoV can have the same same Spelldamage coeff as AP, so it does damage for holy and scales with stam for paladins better.
Judgment can have higher spelldamage coeff,

etc
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Postby Bobness » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:30 am

Candiru wrote:Simple:

Remove Sheath of Light, its causing all sorts of problems.
Make it healing spellpower only, and increase all paladin AP coeffs by 30% of the spelldamage coeff. (no change for ret, boost for prot and holy)

Then you can increase the spelldamage coeff to make a seal better for Holy (and a bit better for prot) without affecting its ret damage. The same for all the different abilities! Much better than the current situation where increasing either coeff buffs ret.

That way SoR will be mostly Spelldamage, but some AP for leveling / Prot.
SoV can have the same same Spelldamage coeff as AP, so it does damage for holy and scales with stam for paladins better.
Judgment can have higher spelldamage coeff,

etc


Or you could just make it real simple...

Why does no-one like simple anymore ?
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Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:33 am

It would be hard for blizzard to make it work the way you suggest.

Damage can scale with AP or Spelldamage at the moment.

Stamina->Spelldamage works
Intelect->Spelldamage works
Intellect->Damage does not.

They would have to recode an awful lot to get it working the way you suggest.
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Postby Bobness » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:41 am

Candiru wrote:It would be hard for blizzard to make it work the way you suggest.

Damage can scale with AP or Spelldamage at the moment.

Stamina->Spelldamage works
Intelect->Spelldamage works
Intellect->Damage does not.

They would have to recode an awful lot to get it working the way you suggest.


Pulling numbers from nowhere...

e.g Holy Paly with 700 Intellect

SOR 20% Int = 140 Holy Damage
JOR 150% int = 1050 Damage


e.g Ret Paly with 100 Intellect

SOR (20% Int) = 20 Holy Damage
JOR (150% int) = 150 Damage

seems fairly simple to me.. although diminishing returns would be required to kick in somewhere...geez you could even amend the scaling

e.g Holy Paly with 700 Intellect

SOR (100% Int + 10% Weapon Dmg) = X Holy Damage
JOR (100% Int + 20% Weapon Dmg) = X Holy Damage
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Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:53 am

No, you cannot have damage based on Primary stats (Str/Int/Agi/Stam)

Damage in this game is only based on the secondary stats of AP or Spelldamage (and BV as a special exception)

You can make secondary stats increased by primary ones, (eg int->AP or int->spelldamage)

This means you can have:

Holy Use spelldamage (from spelldamage and int)
Prot use AP and spelldamage (from Str and Stam)
Ret use AP (from Str)

Now have SoR scale off mostly Spelldamage, with a little AP
SoV off AP and Spelldamage
SoB off just AP

Now SoV is best for prot, SoR for holy and SoB for ret.

Do you see?
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Postby Widdox » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:54 am

Candiru wrote:No, you cannot have damage based on Primary stats (Str/Int/Agi/Stam)

Damage in this game is only based on the secondary stats of AP or Spelldamage (and BV as a special exception)

You can make secondary stats increased by primary ones, (eg int->AP or int->spelldamage)

This means you can have:

Holy Use spelldamage (from spelldamage and int)
Prot use AP and spelldamage (from Str and Stam)
Ret use AP (from Str)

Now have SoR scale off mostly Spelldamage, with a little AP
SoV off AP and Spelldamage
SoB off just AP

Now SoV is best for prot, SoR for holy and SoB for ret.

Do you see?


No cause ret would use the SP and AP one. Unless they made it 1h only.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:11 am

Yeah, that's assuming the obviously required change of removing spelldamage from sheath and bumping all AP coeffs up by 30% of the spelldamage coeffs which I mentioned earlier.

Its impossible to balance the 3 specs DPS/TPS without this change.

Sheath belongs to an era when all abilities had EITHER AP or Spelldamage coeffs. its has no place now.
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