whoa whoa buff blood/matyr??? wtf

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Postby Tyaera » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:39 pm

oh :D
better to tank in hell than DPS in heaven
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Postby Seraphia » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:58 pm

Levantine wrote:I was referring to the Haste and Crit that were mentioned.


Yea, we never see large increases of those through raid buffs. :roll:
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Postby Levantine » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:09 pm

FACE, MEET PALM. PALM, FACE.


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Postby Amanor » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:39 am

Levantine wrote:Insert Unproductive Disparaging Comment Here


Hi, the official forums are -> thataway.

However, if you'd like to post something more conducive to an intellectual discussion without attacking someone or being unnecessarily condescending, this forum is where it goes.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:51 am

DeadMilliken wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:They should add to Judgements of the Just and make it increase judgement damage of JoV/JoR by a ton, so we don't even want to use SoB.


Or maybe instead remove the piddling dmg some of you can't get over. SoB has one final bonus, it follows HotR itemization.
(*weapon damage matters)

I'd personally like our threat sources to be more consistant instead of having oddball sources (*HotR is the only threat source typically used that all of a sudden cares about a melee dps weapon.)


I'm not sure where the confusion even began? Did it count white damage before?


AFAIK no. I didn't use SoB much, but I never remember it doing substanial damage...I always remembered it doing piddling dmg.


Using a seal that inflicts damage is backwards. I realize it's tiny enough to not matter 99% of the time if ever, but it's a bad concept. Further, we'd have Command, Blood, Vengeance, and Righteousness and one of those is the best for 2 specs in PVE and the other doesn't use any of them, which is bad design.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:48 pm

I don't know why you guys are arguing about SoB damage when it's JoB that really hurts and lowers your EH significantly by introducing a mostly random damage element that can crit (raidbuffed at like 25% I might add). I don't care much about taking piddly ticks of damage either.

It'd be lovely if a deep Prot talent removed the health cost of SoB/JoB, but then it would be another story altogether.
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Postby Amanor » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:59 pm

And I'm not at all convinced, PsiVen, that JoB's damage kickback is at all something to consider a reasonable threat. Pulling numbers out of my ass, I can see where people might look at a 2k Judgement with 660 kickback out of their 25k max health and say "Oh snap, that's about 2-3% of your max health! Look how much EH you lose!" but that'd also be overlooking some important, realistic elements.

Judgement of Blood being the cause of a tank death, in and of itself, means you have to suffer a burst that essentially falls explicitly between (Current Health) and (Current Health - JoB Kickback). If the number is greater than (Current Health), JoB had nothing to do with your death. If the number is less, then JoB will not kill you. That means the window of opportunity for JoB to actually kill you is as small as its kickback. I don't know what kind of crits JoB is capable of Raid buffed at 80, but there's your window right there. In the case of my imaginary numbers, that's a window of, at worst 660 HP. I can count the number of times I've survived by up to that amount on my hands, throughout the entire time I've tanked. It's less than the times Ardent Defender has saved me, and people still debate just how useful that talent really is.

And even [i]that[/w] window isn't taking in the full picture. It's actually less of a chance than that, because not only do you have to suffer a burst that falls within those parameters defined earlier, it also has to be suffered at the precise moment that kickback shows up...which is only every time you judge. So, once every 9 seconds or so, if you sustain that precise amount of burst, if you crit, you will have killed yourself.

But the window gets smaller, yet. You also have to, within that period of burst, receive no healing whatsoever between the Mob's inflicted damage and your own self inflicted damage. No direct heals, no splash heals (Glyphed HL for instance), no AoE/chain heals, no HoTs (or at least no HoT tics), no on hit health procs (Like improved Leader of the Pack or JoL), nothing, nada, zip, zilch, bupkis.

So, it seems to me, the chance of actually being in danger of killing yourself exists when:
1) You suffer a burst that falls precisely within the realm of JoB's kickback, in other words, between (Current Health - JoB Kickback) and (Current Health).
2) You judge. (In worst case scenario, you crit with said judgement)
3) You receive no healing effects at all between said burst and JoB kickback.

The chances of even number 1 happening seem remarkably slim, but once you throw 2 and 3 in there as well...I can't actually imagine seeing this all occur even once. Honestly, I think I have a better chance of suffering parrygib due to a parry streak than this. It just doesn't seem to me anything to get worked up or worried over.

Am I overlooking something profound?
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:57 pm

Amanor wrote:And I'm not at all convinced, PsiVen, that JoB's damage kickback is at all something to consider a reasonable threat. Pulling numbers out of my ass, I can see where people might look at a 2k Judgement with 660 kickback out of their 25k max health and say "Oh snap, that's about 2-3% of your max health! Look how much EH you lose!" but that'd also be overlooking some important, realistic elements.

Judgement of Blood being the cause of a tank death, in and of itself, means you have to suffer a burst that essentially falls explicitly between (Current Health) and (Current Health - JoB Kickback). If the number is greater than (Current Health), JoB had nothing to do with your death. If the number is less, then JoB will not kill you. That means the window of opportunity for JoB to actually kill you is as small as its kickback. I don't know what kind of crits JoB is capable of Raid buffed at 80, but there's your window right there. In the case of my imaginary numbers, that's a window of, at worst 660 HP. I can count the number of times I've survived by up to that amount on my hands, throughout the entire time I've tanked. It's less than the times Ardent Defender has saved me, and people still debate just how useful that talent really is.

And even [i]that[/w] window isn't taking in the full picture. It's actually less of a chance than that, because not only do you have to suffer a burst that falls within those parameters defined earlier, it also has to be suffered at the precise moment that kickback shows up...which is only every time you judge. So, once every 9 seconds or so, if you sustain that precise amount of burst, if you crit, you will have killed yourself.

But the window gets smaller, yet. You also have to, within that period of burst, receive no healing whatsoever between the Mob's inflicted damage and your own self inflicted damage. No direct heals, no splash heals (Glyphed HL for instance), no AoE/chain heals, no HoTs (or at least no HoT tics), no on hit health procs (Like improved Leader of the Pack or JoL), nothing, nada, zip, zilch, bupkis.

So, it seems to me, the chance of actually being in danger of killing yourself exists when:
1) You suffer a burst that falls precisely within the realm of JoB's kickback, in other words, between (Current Health - JoB Kickback) and (Current Health).
2) You judge. (In worst case scenario, you crit with said judgement)
3) You receive no healing effects at all between said burst and JoB kickback.

The chances of even number 1 happening seem remarkably slim, but once you throw 2 and 3 in there as well...I can't actually imagine seeing this all occur even once. Honestly, I think I have a better chance of suffering parrygib due to a parry streak than this. It just doesn't seem to me anything to get worked up or worried over.

Am I overlooking something profound?


I can definitely see how taking 660 damage every 9 seconds could contribute to a death. It doesn't have to be the direct cause, it only needs to contribute to the damage over certain period of time that is your health pool more than you get healed for.
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Postby Amanor » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:25 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I can definitely see how taking 660 damage every 9 seconds could contribute to a death. It doesn't have to be the direct cause, it only needs to contribute to the damage over certain period of time that is your health pool more than you get healed for.


Well, if we're talking a sustained situation where you can see that your health is going down faster than its being recovered, you would also be able to react, either by cutting a judgement out of your cycle or popping an emergency cooldown.

But aside from that, that amount, which is assuming a crit every single judgement, would still be mostly, if not entirely, covered by something as simple as JoL's proc, wouldn't it? And that's not even accounting any HoTs that would only add to overheal.

I guess I'm not saying it isn't possible. It just doesn't seem feasible.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:31 pm

Amanor wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I can definitely see how taking 660 damage every 9 seconds could contribute to a death. It doesn't have to be the direct cause, it only needs to contribute to the damage over certain period of time that is your health pool more than you get healed for.


Well, if we're talking a sustained situation where you can see that your health is going down faster than its being recovered, you would also be able to react, either by cutting a judgement out of your cycle or popping an emergency cooldown.

But aside from that, that amount, which is assuming a crit every single judgement, would still be mostly, if not entirely, covered by something as simple as JoL's proc, wouldn't it? And that's not even accounting any HoTs that would only add to overheal.

I guess I'm not saying it isn't possible. It just doesn't seem feasible.


Well the health decline can still end in a burst or momentary lack of healing etc. As long as you aren't healed back to full or within the JoB damage of full, it's a contributing factor.

No, it won't happen very often, it's still an ass backwards design.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:55 pm

I think I'm going to start tanking with seal of blood.

And I'll start a Sig counting the number of times I've died via it and the time since my last death via suicide.
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