whoa whoa buff blood/matyr??? wtf

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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:49 am

Macha wrote:
Knaughty wrote:I'd hope they buff DS, and especially CS.


So, to make up for lowered burst, burst is increased.

...I dunnow. That seems exactly what they didn't want.
Now that judgment is the only holy damage burst they have, making CS buff holy damage done wouldn't be bad.
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Postby Fizzgig » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:51 am

I think they should remove Ret paladins all together because I don't play one.

Jokes of course but I still think the easiest fix would have been to adjust coefficients for 1h and 2h weapons based on appropriate seals. Then if SoB/SoC is too powerful for ret still its only ret effected anyway, and prot with SoV and Holy with SoR remain fine.
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Postby daemonym » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:53 am

it's fairly obvious they have no specific plan in mind for ret. they have a goal definitely, but they're really just going with the 'guess and check' method of it. as in 'we have no idea how this will effect any other spec other than ret so well just go on and do it and see what happens".
Again. What grim vision this? Blood stained tomb, beer cans, and piss. This. Is no life...for a god.

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Postby ehly » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:00 am

daemonym wrote:it's fairly obvious they have no specific plan in mind for ret. they have a goal definitely, but they're really just going with the 'guess and check' method of it. as in 'we have no idea how this will effect any other spec other than ret so well just go on and do it and see what happens".


Pretty much yes. Nearly every holy paladin I know is plain furious at their changes. As prot I def wish some things were better. Though since my husband is a pve top end ret I heard way too much about the changes :( At least at 70 in nearly all pre-sunwell best in slot gear he has been doing about equal damage to some of our hunters and glaive rogue. Really think that witht he newest blue posts they seriously have never played true pve since they sound like they dont understand real damage rotations.
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Postby Eanin » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:10 am

Here's the problem as I see it:

They made prot tps scale off of AP. Whoops! Ret has more AP. Therefore, they start using our seals.

The problem with Blood and Command is that they do damage based on weapon damage. However, we use fast weapons now, so they can't help us. We can't use their seals, while they can use ours.

The solution? Easy. Make tanking seals work only with one-handed weapons.

The end.
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Postby Vengeful » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:21 am

I'm beginnin to believe that my suspision the patch notes are written by manatees putting Word-balls through holes is true.

Paladin........buff.......Martyr/Blood......hotfix!!!
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Postby agamemnoch » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:32 am

Why not give ret a "stance" spell like RF that changes the SoV coefficient but increases their SoC/SoB dmg or something. If it entices them enough to use it, they can leave our spells/abilities alone.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:47 am

I think the best fix for SoV is to make it scale with FASTER weapons, which would then remove any desire for ret to use it.

Something like:

Lower AP coeff on the dot a bit
Make the instant-hit damage something meaningful, which doesn't scale with weapon speed (so faster weapons=more procs=more damage) Something like 10% of weapon DPS per hit.

Now SoV is useless for Ret, but very good for Prot, and favouring fast weapons.
SoR favours slow weapons, so if they balance it right they couuld make the seals tipping point ~ 2.2speed and have a nice choice of weapon/seal combo.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:56 am

Candiru wrote:I think the best fix for SoV is to make it scale with FASTER weapons, which would then remove any desire for ret to use it.

Something like:

Lower AP coeff on the dot a bit
Make the instant-hit damage something meaningful, which doesn't scale with weapon speed (so faster weapons=more procs=more damage) Something like 10% of weapon DPS per hit.

Now SoV is useless for Ret, but very good for Prot, and favouring fast weapons.
SoR favours slow weapons, so if they balance it right they couuld make the seals tipping point ~ 2.2speed and have a nice choice of weapon/seal combo.


It'd have to be something like 2/4/6/8/10%, but if you reduce the scaling to 10% AP and 5% SP on the DOT, make the on-hit into 3/6/9/12/15% of weapon DPS modified by stack size.
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Postby Legionp » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:31 am

Eanin wrote:Here's the problem as I see it:

They made prot tps scale off of AP and SP. Whoops! Ret has more AP and SP. Therefore, they start using our seals.

The problem with Blood and Command is that they do damage based on weapon damage. However, we use fast weapons now, so they can't help us. We can't use their seals, while they can use ours.

The solution? Easy. Make tanking seals work only with one-handed weapons.

The end.


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Postby Dianora » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:42 am

Legionp wrote:
Eanin wrote:Here's the problem as I see it:

They made prot tps scale off of AP and SP. Whoops! Ret has more AP and SP. Therefore, they start using our seals.

The problem with Blood and Command is that they do damage based on weapon damage. However, we use fast weapons now, so they can't help us. We can't use their seals, while they can use ours.

The solution? Easy. Make tanking seals work only with one-handed weapons.

The end.


Fixt


So the solution:
Seal of Righteousness -> for Holy, and scale exclusively with spell power, thus discourages Retribution Paladin from using it. Also scaled with weapon speed to allow for slower swinging maces/sword.

Seal of Vengeance/Corruption -> for protection, and scaled with spell power and attack power. With caveat that AP scaling only applies with the application of Righteous Fury and one handed weapon, thus discourages Retribution Paladin from picking it up with 2 hander.

Seal of Blood/Martyr and Seal of Command -> for retribution, scales with weapon damage/attack power. We can probably tack on a 2 hander restriction on the seal.

Seal of Light and Wisdom causes no damage, so no applicable.
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Postby MDL » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:52 am

Dianora wrote:So the solution:
Seal of Righteousness -> for Holy, and scale exclusively with spell power, thus discourages Retribution Paladin from using it. Also scaled with weapon speed to allow for slower swinging maces/sword.


Er... One problem with this. Unless you spec into Command, Righteousness is the only damage seal you receive until you hit outlands.

Spell power gear really isn't available until you get to Outlands.

Tweaking the non Blood/Command seals to greatly favor one handers, though still benefit from SP/AP mix seems more elegant solution since it allows Holy and Prot specs while levelling to actually get some benefit of the gear available pre level 58.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:00 am

PsiVen wrote:SoB remains a terrible tanking seal.

Cons:
Will fucking kill your ass dead on the ground pushing daisies up with the stench of your rotting carcass which wouldn't stink if you'd only used SoV instead.


Drama drama drama.

Seriously if 10-15dps returned killed you with a 25k hp pool, you were destined to die anyway.

Yes, The judgement hurts alot more (on avg ~500-750). But (and here's the clincher) you don't have to cast it when your about to die...you know maybe hit that Divine Protection, Lay on Hands, or Potion button before judging and killing yourself.

For Seal of blood to kill you, you would have to survive with under 30hp and then melee swing. Or ~.1% of your hp.
Last edited by DeadMilliken on Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:05 am

MDL wrote:
Dianora wrote:So the solution:
Seal of Righteousness -> for Holy, and scale exclusively with spell power, thus discourages Retribution Paladin from using it. Also scaled with weapon speed to allow for slower swinging maces/sword.


Er... One problem with this. Unless you spec into Command, Righteousness is the only damage seal you receive until you hit outlands.

Spell power gear really isn't available until you get to Outlands.
.
Now, the bigger question is: Was that a problem in BC? Having a not-scaled-at-all setup never stopped prot and holy of leveling. And if you bitch about all specs being good to leveling, shove it somewhere uncomfortable for you. Every class has a better spec for leveling and calling that an issue is overkill.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:15 am

Actually, I've decided to up the ante:

I'm betting 10$ (payed via paypal)

That not one single person reading this thread can produce a legit screenshot showing Seal of Blood return dmg causing the killing blow (with overkill) to a tank in a WotLK raid dungeon.

I think it would be nearly impossible to even orchestrate except on the lowest hitting trash. So the only additonal caveat to this is "No orchestrating a high block set with a peon trash mob", turning your back to it and slowly chipping away at the last 1% just to kill yourself with SoB.

Edit Clarification: The melee rebound dmg from the seal, not the judgement. I consider the judgement a seperate "idiots don't use this seal" problem.

Edit2:
There is no time limit on this reward...I'll repost it more prominently if SoB infact becomes our best threat seal.
Last edited by DeadMilliken on Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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