Some confirmation

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Some confirmation

Postby Tieran » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:29 am

Firstly can I please ask you to keep this topic free of crap like ZOMG end of this world etc, I just want someone who is better clued up than myself to tell me if this is all correct.

We took the following nerfs:

20% less seal damage,
less dmg to physical due to 10% increased boss Armor.
No Hammer dmg past 35% ---- Now at 20% again.

The biggest will be when they actually fix the JoL bugg though...

The armor will affect warriors / DKs the most (no armor penetration - druids seem to love this and stack it where possible / feasible?) and our physical dmg is moot compared to holy damage. Correct?

Leaving druids with the most dmg (same as tbc) of the tanking classes - and warriors / DKs as equals - behind us once nerfed? Correct?

Now onto the actual Paladin nerfs:

How will the JoL bugg affect us? Does anyone have any accurate information about roughly how much extra threat that was accounting for?

I know the judgements question has already been asked (heck their is even a thread about remedies blizzard will never offer) so i don't need to ask about the reduction in dmg, I think it was about 10% mentioned in the post so I will leave that out - Blizz think it is fine as they have increased the bosses armor and this evens things out.

SO!

If they fix ALL of this it will gimp us? We will still be viable but will our threat be anywhere near competitive? I know mine is not even close to both the warriors / druids in my guilds at lv70... what about 80?
Asides from that what sort of damage are we putting out? I ask this because I feel this really will be an issue in WOTLK, if another tank is doing a bucket load more you will obviously pick him (I would at least)

I feel Blizzard has put their foot in it here:

They can't boost prot largely without it being very obvious and masses of QQ ensuing from teh other tanks - well at least not to the levels needed to counter the JoL bugg fix because most other classes do not know about the JoL bugg.

They can't remove the nerfs they have already put in place - and I get the feeling they don't want to buff Shield due to scalability issues. Does that leave pro Hammer time / awesome glyphs to save the day?
I don't think they will chuck in any new talents this late in the show - and I don't want them to due to congestion in the talent table.
We do still have the 11 pointer to consider but I would like this to be a mitigation / surv talent rather than a threat boost (its low enough for rets to get anyway so they won't put in a threat / damage boost me thinks)

Is all this correct?

Again pls keep any replies relatively informative - I don't want to have to sift through all the bull**** to find the one guy who is being helpful, and if I have to then I will just throw a temper tantrum and logg out :P
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:32 am

Our threat lead over the DPS was high enough that nerfing Seals and Judgements doesn't seem like it will cause us to become nonviable. It's just frustrating because while our threat was very competitive with other tanks, our DPS was a bit behind.


EDIT: Fixed typo
Last edited by Fridmarr on Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dianora » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:35 am

Fridmarr wrote:Our threat lead over the DPS was high enough that nerfing Seals and Judgements doesn't seem like it will cause us to become nonviable. It's just frustrating because while our threat was very competitive with other tanks, how DPS was a bit behind.


There was a time during the Beta that Judgement of anything was doing no damage. Paladin was still able to do more than enough threat to stay ahead of the dps with pretty much just ShoR and JotR. Mind you, this was prior to the ridiculous 2x BV ShoR buff that was later rescinded.
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Postby Macha » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:02 pm

Dianora wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Our threat lead over the DPS was high enough that nerfing Seals and Judgements doesn't seem like it will cause us to become nonviable. It's just frustrating because while our threat was very competitive with other tanks, how DPS was a bit behind.


There was a time during the Beta that Judgement of anything was doing no damage. Paladin was still able to do more than enough threat to stay ahead of the dps with pretty much just ShoR and JotR. Mind you, this was prior to the ridiculous 2x BV ShoR buff that was later rescinded.


It was also before all of the ridiculous seal nerfs.

Oh, ShoR was always 2x BV. The buff upped it beyond that. It was then nerfed into its 100%, and then buffed again into its current state. And actually.... 2x BV isn't ridiculous. I think it likely that soon, ShoR will be changed back to the original ShoR to compensate for the threat and dps loss of judgement/seals. It'd still do less damage than shield slam that way. At 70 my co-tank already can do 6.5k shieldslam crits while tanking.

And yes, as said, we still hold aggro, we just have the lowest threat by far. It's not really an aggro issue over the dps - it just is annoying when you have two tanks, because when for some reason you are chosen to tank, your offtanks have to hold back quite a bit. They really shouldn't have to.
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Postby Splug » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:17 pm

Regarding the original post:

Your log of anticipated changes is correct. The results of several combined changes are somewhat inconclusive without numbers to back up their relative impact (I saw calculations on this exact comparison starting up in another thread maybe half an hour ago, so there may be more information there later). Thus your conclusions are a little bit subjective and require hard numbers to bridge the gap.

I question whether druids stack ArP by desire or by lack of alternatives, as a significant portion of their damage comes from bleeds (which ignore armor anyway). However, sharing itemization with rogues means they play the hand they've been dealt, and yes higher boss armor means ArP will be more effective with the 3.0 formulae.

Has the Judgement of Light threat effect been stated as a known issue / bug yet? Given the nature of vigilance (absorbing threat from another player), it may actually be intended to have tanks generating some form of passive threat. Then again, erroneous behavior seems to be a more likely explaination.

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Re: Some confirmation

Postby EvilNuff » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:22 pm

Tieran wrote:...We will still be viable but will our threat be anywhere near competitive? I know mine is not even close to both the warriors / druids in my guilds at lv70... what about 80? ...


May I ask what weapon and rotation you are using? I have found that my threat is, if anything, to HIGH relative to Warriors. We have been running ZA with a T5 geared War MT and me in Kara gear as OT and I end up pulling off him a goodly amount of the time on non-bosses (Where I usually go healing).

Has anyone else had threat problems? Maybe you should re-think what your gear/rotation choices are?
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Re: Some confirmation

Postby Ghort » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:48 pm

EvilNuff wrote:
Tieran wrote:...We will still be viable but will our threat be anywhere near competitive? I know mine is not even close to both the warriors / druids in my guilds at lv70... what about 80? ...


May I ask what weapon and rotation you are using? I have found that my threat is, if anything, to HIGH relative to Warriors. We have been running ZA with a T5 geared War MT and me in Kara gear as OT and I end up pulling off him a goodly amount of the time on non-bosses (Where I usually go healing).

Has anyone else had threat problems? Maybe you should re-think what your gear/rotation choices are?


Same experience almost, but with a druid - he's t5/6 geared and I'm kara/some badge geared, and I take and keep aggro from him with my blue tanking SSO sword...
80 Paladin (Prot) - Azual
80 Warrior (Prot/Arms) - Madarab
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80 DK (Blood Tank) Deadkitten
80 Priest (holy/disc) - Ghort
5/12 ICC 10

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Re: Some confirmation

Postby Widdox » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:08 pm

EvilNuff wrote:
Tieran wrote:...We will still be viable but will our threat be anywhere near competitive? I know mine is not even close to both the warriors / druids in my guilds at lv70... what about 80? ...


May I ask what weapon and rotation you are using? I have found that my threat is, if anything, to HIGH relative to Warriors. We have been running ZA with a T5 geared War MT and me in Kara gear as OT and I end up pulling off him a goodly amount of the time on non-bosses (Where I usually go healing).

Has anyone else had threat problems? Maybe you should re-think what your gear/rotation choices are?


It depends on gear level. As warriors move up in gear and gain expertise and hit, they scale very fast on threat. Not to mention they are very weapon dependant. If you are comparing Kara level gear, the paladin has always had a lead.

Thats why looking forward to Wotlk content, its hard to know where things will go. On paper it looks like our threat will scale better this time around, but we'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Some confirmation

Postby lusisia » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:09 pm

EvilNuff wrote:
Tieran wrote:...We will still be viable but will our threat be anywhere near competitive? I know mine is not even close to both the warriors / druids in my guilds at lv70... what about 80? ...


May I ask what weapon and rotation you are using? I have found that my threat is, if anything, to HIGH relative to Warriors. We have been running ZA with a T5 geared War MT and me in Kara gear as OT and I end up pulling off him a goodly amount of the time on non-bosses (Where I usually go healing).

Has anyone else had threat problems? Maybe you should re-think what your gear/rotation choices are?


Unless I misread the post, he's concerned about post nerf. Not live right now. All of these concerns are due to the changes that are COMING not are here.
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Postby amadiss » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:19 pm

Is the 10% armor on bosses going to be a "cap" meaning that not all af them will have it?

Or do all bosses just got 10% more mitigation from armor?
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:35 pm

amadiss wrote:Is the 10% armor on bosses going to be a "cap" meaning that not all af them will have it?

Or do all bosses just got 10% more mitigation from armor?


I believe they get 10% more armor, but 10% more armor does not mean 10% more mitigation from armor.
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Postby amadiss » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:38 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
amadiss wrote:Is the 10% armor on bosses going to be a "cap" meaning that not all af them will have it?

Or do all bosses just got 10% more mitigation from armor?


I believe they get 10% more armor, but 10% more armor does not mean 10% more mitigation from armor.


I doesn't, in fact once you reach the armor cap 10% more armor means

0% more mitigation.
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Re: Some confirmation

Postby EvilNuff » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:52 pm

Widdox wrote:
EvilNuff wrote:...with a T5 geared War MT and me in Kara gear as OT...


It depends on gear level. As warriors move up in gear and gain expertise and hit, they scale very fast on threat. Not to mention they are very weapon dependant. If you are comparing Kara level gear, the paladin has always had a lead....


If you re-read the part of my post I helpfully re-quoted for you...the Warrior MT has significantly better gear than I do. As an example, I end up about 17k hps buffed where he is well over 20k...his unbuffed stats are comparable to my buffed ones.

Edit: as further comparison the Warrior in question was MT'ing kara bear runs before I set foot in kara. I am still using the blue bp from mech normal. Etc.

lusisia wrote:
EvilNuff wrote:
Tieran wrote:...We will still be viable but will our threat be anywhere near competitive? I know mine is not even close to both the warriors / druids in my guilds at lv70... what about 80? ...

...


Unless I misread the post, he's concerned about post nerf. Not live right now. All of these concerns are due to the changes that are COMING not are here.


Yes he is concerned post nerf but if you read the part I quoted he specifically mentions that his is now not even close to both warriors and druids in his guild at 70.

Please folks...read the posts before replying...please?
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Postby Mavrix » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:10 pm

What makes us believe that bosses would have an armor cap?
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:11 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
amadiss wrote:Is the 10% armor on bosses going to be a "cap" meaning that not all af them will have it?

Or do all bosses just got 10% more mitigation from armor?


I believe they get 10% more armor, but 10% more armor does not mean 10% more mitigation from armor.


Depends how you consider that 10% more mitigation from armor.
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