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Retribution Leveling gearing guide

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Dragonzbane » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:09 pm

Need some quick advise on my Ret gear set.

I will list it all at the end so you can check it out if need be but here is where I think my biggest issues are:


Shoulders: S2

I never got a chance to pick up T6 and stopped arena a long time ago so I never had a shot at S3 or S4. The guild has stopped raiding so where can I got for an upgrade here if anywhere?


Legs: Divine Retribution or Endless Rage or Felfury

My question is which should I use?
With the change to ArPen is it worth it to use the Divine Legs?
Am I better off with the Endless Rage legs due to the hit rating?
Should I just dump them both and gem and enchant the Fel legs because of the higher stats and haste?


Weapon: Cat's Edge w/Executioner or Torch of the Damned w/Mongoose

I mainly used Cat's Edge in PvP for the Armor Penetration is it worth it to use it leveling or should I just go with the Torch due to the higher Top end?


Other Gear:
Helm: Illidari Shatterer (S3)
Neck: Guardian's
Cloak: Dory's
Chest: Heartshatter
Gloves: S4
Belt: T6 (Guardian's)
Boots: T6 (Vindicator's)
Bracers: T6 (Vindicator's)
Ring: Vindicator's
Ring: Badge Ring (Veteran's)
Trinket: Shard of Contempt
Trinket: Brewfest (2min PvP)
Libram: H BF

*PvP set in "( )"
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby uke » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:19 pm

IIRC, I believe that armor penetration's been reworked to not be as nice as it was pre 3.0.

Pre 3.0, it was a straight armor value ignored. For instance, if with Executioner procced you had 1200 ArP, you would beat on a clothie with only 1200 armor as if he had no armor at all.

Now, it's based on a percent value. i.e. your attacks ignore a % of opponents armor. For clothies with already low armor values, it's not much of a reduction.

However, it's ironically more powerful vs plate now, as you're ignoring a percent of a larger number, which means more armor bypassed.

In other words
pre 3.0 - ArP was more effective on cloth than plate
post 3.0 - ArP is more effective on plate vs cloth

In your case, the higher top end damage of Torch of the Damned is pro, I'd go with that in my opinion.

That's just my opinion though and others may disagree.
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Postby uke » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:23 pm

Dragonzbane wrote: I never got a chance to pick up T6 and stopped arena a long time ago so I never had a shot at S3 or S4. The guild has stopped raiding so where can I got for an upgrade here if anywhere?


Not much upgrades that I can think of outside of either T6 or S3/S4, or other T6 raid non-set dps shoulders.

S2/3/4's pretty well itemized. I can't check it from work but check out either retpaladin.com, and go to the 'best gear by slot' section on the main page, or maxdps.com, for the full range of choices.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:19 pm

With T6 Boots, Belt and Bracers plus the Shard of Contempt (104 rating?)do I have too much Expertise being Human and using either a Mace or Sword?
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:27 pm

PsiVen wrote:When leveling, choose gear that avoids exchanging any other DPS stat for Haste. It's only competitive single-target, and you should rarely be fighting only one enemy at a time.


Interesting point. MaxDPS.com's rankings are affected strongly by haste, as it's about single target boss DPS, mainly. (Ironically, all the new Undead Slaying gear is LOADED with haste...)


halabar wrote:And the Ragesteel crafted are just about as good as the badge ones. Save badges for something else. There are much better drops in raids than the badge ones...


Unfortunately, the Ragesteel ones also look like butt, IMO. ;)
For me, the rankings look like:

T4: 45.9 dps
60 Badges: 43.6 dps
Ragesteel: 42 dps
Everlasting Pain: 35.4
...
Blessed Spaulders of T2-ness: 25.4 dps (/cry ... why only blue quality? :( )
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Postby halabar » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:35 pm

Kelaan wrote:
PsiVen wrote:When leveling, choose gear that avoids exchanging any other DPS stat for Haste. It's only competitive single-target, and you should rarely be fighting only one enemy at a time.


Interesting point. MaxDPS.com's rankings are affected strongly by haste, as it's about single target boss DPS, mainly. (Ironically, all the new Undead Slaying gear is LOADED with haste...)


halabar wrote:And the Ragesteel crafted are just about as good as the badge ones. Save badges for something else. There are much better drops in raids than the badge ones...


Unfortunately, the Ragesteel ones also look like butt, IMO. ;)
For me, the rankings look like:

T4: 45.9 dps
60 Badges: 43.6 dps
Ragesteel: 42 dps
Everlasting Pain: 35.4
...
Blessed Spaulders of T2-ness: 25.4 dps (/cry ... why only blue quality? :( )


Yeah, that's why I bought the Ragesteel. 350G or so is a lot cheaper than 60 badges for that little of a difference... there are far better places to spend badges. Other badge items are T6 quality, the badge shoulders pale in comparison.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:41 pm

Other tips for soloing in wrath:

Prioritize Crit rating first.
Crit affects your damage and scales well with talents.
Crit rating increases the amount of instant flash of light procs.
Crit rating increases the healing you do.
Crit rating increases the frequency of Sheath of Light hots.
Crit decreases the time spent on 1 mob by often reducing the amount of strikes needed.
Crit rating will proc Vengeance more often.

Strength affects damage and scales with improved strength.
-You will not have 5/5 kings the majority of leveling, probably.
Strength affects block value.
-Why on earth do you have a shield on?

So, in terms of leveling and possibly pvp, Crit rating will win out in wotlk.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:17 am

So would you suggest switching out all of my STR Gems for STR/Crit gems or just go flat out Crit Gems and trust the Gear stats and enchants to handle STR for me?
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:31 am

Dragonzbane wrote:So would you suggest switching out all of my STR Gems for STR/Crit gems or just go flat out Crit Gems and trust the Gear stats and enchants to handle STR for me?

Depends how much str you already have. Crit is more viable with more str, and vice versa. After a certain point of str, crit is better. Once crit hits a point, str is better again. This has always been true, the curve has just changed in favor of crit sooner and longer.

Looking up at your gear I would probably regem for crit in the pve gear, as your pvp gear isn't that amazing.
Last edited by Elsie on Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby halabar » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:34 am

Elsie wrote:
Dragonzbane wrote:So would you suggest switching out all of my STR Gems for STR/Crit gems or just go flat out Crit Gems and trust the Gear stats and enchants to handle STR for me?

Depends how much str you already have. Crit is more viable with more str, and vice versa. After a certain point of str, crit is better. Once crit hits a point, str is better again. This has always been true, the curve has just changed in favor of crit sooner and longer.


And depends on how long you'll be keeping that gear... 8)
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Postby uke » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:49 am

Elsie wrote:
Dragonzbane wrote:So would you suggest switching out all of my STR Gems for STR/Crit gems or just go flat out Crit Gems and trust the Gear stats and enchants to handle STR for me?

Depends how much str you already have. Crit is more viable with more str, and vice versa. After a certain point of str, crit is better. Once crit hits a point, str is better again. This has always been true, the curve has just changed in favor of crit sooner and longer.

Looking up at your gear I would probably regem for crit in the pve gear, as your pvp gear isn't that amazing.


retpaladin.com and maxdps would highly disagree with gemming for crit over strength. I don't know if it's changed that drastically in 3.0, but most of those sources have always stressed strength over crit, especially in gemming, with crit coming naturally on gear upgrades.

I could be wrong, but that's what I came to learn. If you disagree Elsie, I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:00 am

uke wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Dragonzbane wrote:So would you suggest switching out all of my STR Gems for STR/Crit gems or just go flat out Crit Gems and trust the Gear stats and enchants to handle STR for me?

Depends how much str you already have. Crit is more viable with more str, and vice versa. After a certain point of str, crit is better. Once crit hits a point, str is better again. This has always been true, the curve has just changed in favor of crit sooner and longer.

Looking up at your gear I would probably regem for crit in the pve gear, as your pvp gear isn't that amazing.


retpaladin.com and maxdps would highly disagree with gemming for crit over strength. I don't know if it's changed that drastically in 3.0, but most of those sources have always stressed strength over crit, especially in gemming, with crit coming naturally on gear upgrades.

I could be wrong, but that's what I came to learn. If you disagree Elsie, I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why.

+20% crit damage on Crusader strike, +25% on judgment, +50% on divine storm, instant FoL, Sheath of Light vs. +15% strength
-As I posted above in this exact same thread?

Remember this is a thread about leveling and potential pvp involved in said leveling. maxdps assumes a raid environment. Even if STR was slightly ahead in damage, the burst damage and healing win out.

Frankly, I don't think maxdps was updated to 3.0.2
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Postby uke » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:34 am

Elsie wrote:
uke wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Dragonzbane wrote:So would you suggest switching out all of my STR Gems for STR/Crit gems or just go flat out Crit Gems and trust the Gear stats and enchants to handle STR for me?

Depends how much str you already have. Crit is more viable with more str, and vice versa. After a certain point of str, crit is better. Once crit hits a point, str is better again. This has always been true, the curve has just changed in favor of crit sooner and longer.

Looking up at your gear I would probably regem for crit in the pve gear, as your pvp gear isn't that amazing.


retpaladin.com and maxdps would highly disagree with gemming for crit over strength. I don't know if it's changed that drastically in 3.0, but most of those sources have always stressed strength over crit, especially in gemming, with crit coming naturally on gear upgrades.

I could be wrong, but that's what I came to learn. If you disagree Elsie, I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why.

+20% crit damage on Crusader strike, +25% on judgment, +50% on divine storm, instant FoL, Sheath of Light vs. +15% strength
-As I posted above in this exact same thread?

Remember this is a thread about leveling and potential pvp involved in said leveling. maxdps assumes a raid environment. Even if STR was slightly ahead in damage, the burst damage and healing win out.

Frankly, I don't think maxdps was updated to 3.0.2


Even with the new crit talents, it still doesn't benefit gemming as much as STR for value per gem.

Consider, for a 10 STR gem:
-multiply by 1.2 from Divine Strength
-multiply by 1.1 if you have kings
-multiply by another 1.2 when wings are up.
-also keep in mind that more STR equals more damage both on non-crit AND crit hits.

You're not going to get that kind of benefit of multipliers with a +crit gem in it's place. The STR gem is buffed more via talents much more than a crit gem, which has no multipliers.

Also consider that when you're leveling, your crit chance is going to drop per level until you start stacking epics again at lvl 80. Fully buffed in raiding gear now, I'm at about 33% crit chance, of which my talents buff 33% of my attacks and heals. However, Strength buffs 100% of my attacks and heals, including crits.

To sum up:
1. in terms of gemming, STR gives more bang for the buck due to STR multipliers via talents, crit gems do not multiply benefit beyond the base gem value
2. when leveling, your crit chance is going to drop until you hit 80. STR helps both crit and non crit hits, spells, and heals.
3. plate DPS gear is going to have both aplenty, so it's kind of a moot point anyway. You're going to get plenty of both.

I'm not trying to be combative, Elsie, and I'm still open to debate on this.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:52 am

Even with the new crit talents, it still doesn't benefit gemming as much as STR for value per gem.

Consider, for a 10 STR gem:
-multiply by 1.2 from Divine Strength
-multiply by 1.1 if you have kings
-multiply by another 1.2 when wings are up.
-also keep in mind that more STR equals more damage both on non-crit AND crit hits.

You won't have kings at the start is the thing. You probably won't even start spec'ing kings till 74. Wings are a moot point since the net effect should be relatively the same.

You're not going to get that kind of benefit of multipliers with a +crit gem in it's place. The STR gem is buffed more via talents much more than a crit gem, which has no multipliers.

This isnt true. There are 5 talents that directly draw their strength from crit, and one for strength.

Also consider that when you're leveling, your crit chance is going to drop per level until you start stacking epics again at lvl 80. Fully buffed in raiding gear now, I'm at about 33% crit chance, of which my talents buff 33% of my attacks and heals. However, Strength buffs 100% of my attacks and heals, including crits.

This is actually a point in favor of crit, since your AP remains constant and you lose crit. I have over 37% crit in raid pve gear and gemmed for strength and +3% crit damage metagem. Remember that AP/Crit relative value is a curve. All gear is probably going to be replaced by 80, anyway. So regem value is moot.
Frankly, the healing you get off +spell power healing from AP is laughable compared to sheathe procs.

To sum up:
1. This isn't true in my view, and ignores the value of all your crit talents.
2. Moot issue since gear gets replaced (even t6/sunwell) at 77-80 when it is a real issue. At this point even +str gems aren't amazing.
3. Yep, but that also solidifies my 2nd point.


There isn't anyone I know who has changed their gems that I know since no one really cares - all our gear will get replaced soon enough. However, for some correlated data, t6+ arms warriors used 10 crit gems mostly to proc their effects more - and those effects were no where near as strong as the new ones.
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Postby Falkman » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:37 am

Elsie wrote:+20% crit damage on Crusader strike, +25% on judgment, +50% on divine storm vs. +15% strength
-As I posted above in this exact same thread?

Remember this is a thread about leveling and potential pvp involved in said leveling. maxdps assumes a raid environment. Even if STR was slightly ahead in damage, the burst damage and healing win out.

Elsie, you have to keep in mind that all the above stated things that rely on crit are going to change in 3.0.3.
Art of War will no longer buff crits, and Righteous Vengeance will not improve crit damage, it will instead add a Deep wounds-like DoT when you crit with Judgement or Divine Storm.
This greatly lessens the worth of crit.
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