GC damage control post #2

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Postby amadiss » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:08 pm

Drathian wrote:
amadiss wrote:
Drathian wrote:
amadiss wrote:
Drathian wrote:
baghead wrote:
Levantine wrote:I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.

You guys need to read up the definitions of 'liability' and 'disadvantage'.

Anything that restricts or changes the normal operation of a fight is a limitation. There are workarounds to everything, but this doesn't mean it's a good thing.

People need to stop making class limitations sound like a good thing.


Hate to break it to you, but it's hardly a limitation.

I "progression" tanked 4 hoursemen on Beta, with another Protection Paladin, in a raid that was, if anything, undergeared.

I've also done it with a warrior. It isn't something that makes or breaks the encounter.

All I hear around here is QQ this and QQ that, and doom and gloom, and reroll, and deactivate account.

Have fun. I'll be progression tanking on my tankadin in WotLK, no matter what anyone says, does, nerfs, or buffs.




Still you missed the point on what defines a disadvantage.


No, I didn't. Because it isn't a limitation. It isn't a hassle. And it's barely, barely a disadvantage: in that it requires a person to use their brain instead of being brain dead.

Anyone who tells you differently hasn't actually done it, and they're just arguing about it because they couldn't come up with anything better to argue about.

It's insignificant.



I didn't say "limitation" and still you miss the point of what is a disadvantage.


Limitation was referring to another post, one that was quoted in all those quotes.

And I know perfectly well what a disadvantage is. It's when you don't have the advantage, or when there isn't equality.

So ok. Tankadins are disadvantaged in that in the 4-horsemen fight, in that they actually have to communicate when taunts are used instead of brainlessly mashing the taunt button during the transition.

And the point of my posts was highlighting how insignificant that disadvantage is.

Because it is insignificant. I've been there. I've done it. I've done it in the worst case scenario and came through it with no trouble every single time. It is that meaningless.



Ok, We agree then. I never said it was terribly important and in fact i didnt pronounce myself on how very much or very little do I care about this issue.
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Postby majiben » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:10 pm

Levantine wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
You missed a couple knaughty.

We are the most vulnerable to fear, silence and mana burn effects of all the tanks.

We have the lease tools to deal with casters.

Underlined parts are not going to effect tanks anymore, said the blues.
They'll likely keep doing it to everyone but the maintank meaning we might face issues when off tanking said fights. They could of course make those in melee range immune but have a increased cast time for those in melee to force the casters and healers into the lesser of the two evils. I could see resto druids circumventing this though.
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Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:13 pm

Levantine wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
You missed a couple knaughty.

We are the most vulnerable to fear, silence and mana burn effects of all the tanks.

We have the lease tools to deal with casters.


Underlined parts are not going to effect tanks anymore, said the blues.


Well, that particular part, I'm going to believe when I see it. They said fear would not play a big role in BC raiding, either...
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:13 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:You missed a couple knaughty.

We are the most vulnerable to fear, silence and mana burn effects of all the tanks.

We have the lease tools to deal with casters.

• Fear = drop tremor, complete non-issue. Totem ticks super fast now. 1 sec? half a sec?

• GC has flat out said that WotLK bosses will not silence or mana burn the tanks.

• "Worst at casters" is (IMO) tanking flavour. DKs are best, then warriors, then druids/pallies who basically get nuked in the head until the mob dies. We're best at fast hitters, best at AE tanking, and best at rounding up 2-3 things at once (hammer / shield / taunt are all triple target).
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:15 pm

mavfin wrote:Well, that particular part, I'm going to believe when I see it. They said fear would not play a big role in BC raiding, either...


ZOMG IT DOESN'T!

There's...

• Nightbane
...

thinking
...
• Archi?

Shit, is there a fearing boss between Nightbane and Archi?

(1) Fear was a small component in TBC compared to classic, where every second boss feared the tank.

(2) TBC was designed for warrior MT, pally/druid OT, by Blizzard's own admission. They promised not to do that this time.

=edit=

There's also a BIIIIIG difference between:

"Fear will be a minor issue"

and

"We will not mana burn or silence tanks, because it unfairly penalises prot paladins"
Last edited by knaughty on Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ilara » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:16 pm

>.> I don't see why these issues are worth arguing over, guys. We should all know better by now. lets not turn into official forums here.
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Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:17 pm

Knaughty wrote:
mavfin wrote:Well, that particular part, I'm going to believe when I see it. They said fear would not play a big role in BC raiding, either...


ZOMG IT DOESN'T!

There's...

• Nightbane
...

thinking

Shit, is there a fearing boss between Nightbane and Archi?

(1) Fear was a small component in TBC compared to classic, where evry second boss feared the tank.

(2) TBC was designed for warrior MT, pally/druid OT, by Blizzard's own admission. They promised not to do that this time.


Good point, I guess. They said it for general BC, and there's quite a bit in heroics, so I guess I've lumped it all together in my mind. Regardless, it was not my intent to make it a huge issue, more of a humorous note about what they said 'last time' :D
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:20 pm

mavfin wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
mavfin wrote:Well, that particular part, I'm going to believe when I see it. They said fear would not play a big role in BC raiding, either...


ZOMG IT DOESN'T!

There's...

• Nightbane
...

thinking

Shit, is there a fearing boss between Nightbane and Archi?

(1) Fear was a small component in TBC compared to classic, where evry second boss feared the tank.

(2) TBC was designed for warrior MT, pally/druid OT, by Blizzard's own admission. They promised not to do that this time.


Good point, I guess. They said it for general BC, and there's quite a bit in heroics, so I guess I've lumped it all together in my mind. Regardless, it was not my intent to make it a huge issue, more of a humorous note about what they said 'last time' :D


It was also majorly nerfed. Remember when you used to lose aggro while feared? I basically could guarantee my healer would die every pull toward the end of Sethekk Halls.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:24 pm

mavfin wrote:Good point, I guess. They said it for general BC, and there's quite a bit in heroics, so I guess I've lumped it all together in my mind. Regardless, it was not my intent to make it a huge issue, more of a humorous note about what they said 'last time' :D

I re-ran MC and BWL for the first time since Classic this week. (Note: Bubblewall does not substitute for an Ony cloak)

Every second trash mob in MC had an AE 10-sec silence, a fear or both. Half the bosses in BWL had bellowing roar.

Was eye-opening.

That said, I also tend to find GC a far more reliable source of info than the bliztards from 2.0 era beta. Who basically lied, by GC's current admission.

Whenever I get too discouraged about 3.0 balance, I think back to how craptastic 2.0 was and my worries evaporate.
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Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:25 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
mavfin wrote:Good point, I guess. They said it for general BC, and there's quite a bit in heroics, so I guess I've lumped it all together in my mind. Regardless, it was not my intent to make it a huge issue, more of a humorous note about what they said 'last time' :D


It was also majorly nerfed. Remember when you used to lose aggro while feared? I basically could guarantee my healer would die every pull toward the end of Sethekk Halls.


Yeah, Slave Pens with the Champions, SL with the intim shouting demons that of course went right for the healer, etc. They did nerf quite a bit of it.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:27 pm

moduspwnens wrote:It was also majorly nerfed. Remember when you used to lose aggro while feared? I basically could guarantee my healer would die every pull toward the end of Sethekk Halls.

I was discounting heroics re fear, and only considering raids & MT duty. Standard Bias kicking in (read sig).

"Fear will be a minor issue" (except in heroics, where we're going to kill you healer every second pull, and wipe you every... fifth?)

Would be a fairer assessment.

I fully expect that some bosses will fear in Wrath, using current mechanics. Given I tanked Archi in 2.4, and Nightbane in ... 2.3? I'm unconcerned (though I may have the warrior tank anyway).
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Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:31 pm

Knaughty wrote:I fully expect that some bosses will fear in Wrath, using current mechanics. Given I tanked Archi in 2.4, and Nightbane in ... 2.3? I'm unconcerned (though I may have the warrior tank anyway).


However, only a few fearing bosses goes right back to 'flavor'. Yes, pallies are not the easiest choice for it, but they can do it. Same with other flavors of boss that are a little harder for another type of tank. As long as it's doable without a ton of trouble, then it's 'flavor'.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:42 pm

Just to drive the point home:

I have tanked EVERY SINGLE BOSS that does stuff that supposedly makes it disadvanged for pallies. With the sole exception of RoS p2, they were all cake.

Mana burn is not a problem when you are taking sufficient damage.

Silence is only a problem if it lasts an exceptionally long time...even then with HotR working through silence and keeping SoV dots up...its more of just a threat reduction now...

Fear is since 2.1 or whatever it was that kept aggro through fear has been a joke. I've tanked every single raid boss, including archi...
FEAR
IS
A
JOKE
to the prepared tank.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:49 pm

mavfin wrote:
Knaughty wrote:I fully expect that some bosses will fear in Wrath, using current mechanics. Given I tanked Archi in 2.4, and Nightbane in ... 2.3? I'm unconcerned (though I may have the warrior tank anyway).


However, only a few fearing bosses goes right back to 'flavor'. Yes, pallies are not the easiest choice for it, but they can do it. Same with other flavors of boss that are a little harder for another type of tank. As long as it's doable without a ton of trouble, then it's 'flavor'.

/agree

Current version of fear is "flavour".

2.2-era (or whenever it was) when a missed stance-dance on a close-to-progression kill of Nightbane or Archi was a wipe, and fear ward was Nubliance only is not freaking flavour!

Depending on circumstances, pretty strong flavour: I don't tank Archi by choice. But if there's a 3.0 version of Kael'Thas, you'd never have anyone but a DK tank it by choice either. And Druids will be #1 for bosses that silence the healers. Flavour balance looks good, other than Warriors & paladins being (unavoidably, perhaps) too close in "FLAVA".
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:57 pm

Actually, mana burning will be an issue when not tanking.
Still a loosy design.
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