GC damage control post #2

[knaughty]

I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.

You guys need to read up the definitions of 'liability' and 'disadvantage'.

Liability, in colloquial terms, usually means "actively worse than being absent entirely".

Barney McPogo-stick was a liability when our squad had to disarm minefields

Disadvantaged: Not as good as the alternative.

All tanks are disadvantaged compared to DKs at 4-h, because DKs have a taunt that yanks the horseman 30 yards, reducing the time tanks spend close to each other to switch the horsemen

Having to time taunts is a ridiculously minor issue.

[amadiss]

I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.

You guys need to read up the definitions of 'liability' and 'disadvantage'.

Anything that restricts or changes the normal operation of a fight is a limitation. There are workarounds to everything, but this doesn't mean it's a good thing.

People need to stop making class limitations sound like a good thing.

Hate to break it to you, but it's hardly a limitation.

I "progression" tanked 4 hoursemen on Beta, with another Protection Paladin, in a raid that was, if anything, undergeared.

I've also done it with a warrior. It isn't something that makes or breaks the encounter.

All I hear around here is QQ this and QQ that, and doom and gloom, and reroll, and deactivate account.

Have fun. I'll be progression tanking on my tankadin in WotLK, no matter what anyone says, does, nerfs, or buffs.

Still you missed the point on what defines a disadvantage.

[knaughty]

Doesn't work so well if pally goes second. Warrior taunts his, pally taunts, grab's warrior's back away from him. Whoops!

I'm not actually even sure this is true anymore. This could easily be wrong... Someone check?

Thinking about it, last time I tried, the outcome was this:

• Warrior tanking Amob
• Pally tanking Bmob

(1) Warrior taunts Bmob. Bmob is fixated on Warrior. Amob is also on warrior.
(2) Paladin RD's Warrior. Amob fixates on Pally. Bmob ignores RD, he's already fixated on warrior for another couple of seconds.

IE: I don't think you can RD off a mob when that mob has a "taunt debuff" on them. You have to wait till it fades.

So: 3, 2, 1, Taunt actually works (I think).

Someone go check.

[tbolt]

So is GC saying that the 10% armor increase, is the only threat buff we're getting to balance the seal/judge nerf? Because that seems pretty crappy.

[cap_x]

After reading both GC posts on the issue and the reaction around the place there is no doubt in the mind that prot will be buffed once the changes are tested. We all knew ret was beyond OP, the changes that blizz put in were a band-aid to say the least. We all knew that the nerf was coming and that we were going to be hit hard. I mean yeah it sure does suck the way holy and prot got hit but when announcing the nerf CG said that they realise that the changes to seals/judgments us class wide and it will be compensated for.

If that is not enough the fact still remains that Bliz needs all 4 tanking classes to be viable as tanks or else the reitemization to gear and efforts they have made to get people tanking are for nothing.

I say give it 72 hours and GC will announce the changes to get us where we need to be.

[mavfin]

Doesn't work so well if pally goes second. Warrior taunts his, pally taunts, grab's warrior's back away from him. Whoops!

I'm not actually even sure this is true anymore. This could easily be wrong... Someone check?

Thinking about it, last time I tried, the outcome was this:

• Warrior tanking Amob
• Pally tanking Bmob

(1) Warrior taunts Bmob. Bmob is fixated on Warrior. Amob is also on warrior.
(2) Paladin RD's Warrior. Amob fixates on Pally. Bmob ignores RD, he's already fixated on warrior for another couple of seconds.

IE: I don't think you can RD off a mob when that mob has a "taunt debuff" on them. You have to wait till it fades.

So: 3, 2, 1, Taunt actually works (I think).

Someone go check.

You're probably right, as long as lag doesn't enter the equation. If it does, then it's probably safer for pally to taunt first.

[amadiss]

So is GC saying that the 10% armor increase, is the only threat buff we're getting to balance the seal/judge nerf? Because that seems pretty crappy.

Not "the only" .

[Drathian]

I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.

You guys need to read up the definitions of 'liability' and 'disadvantage'.

Anything that restricts or changes the normal operation of a fight is a limitation. There are workarounds to everything, but this doesn't mean it's a good thing.

People need to stop making class limitations sound like a good thing.

Hate to break it to you, but it's hardly a limitation.

I "progression" tanked 4 hoursemen on Beta, with another Protection Paladin, in a raid that was, if anything, undergeared.

I've also done it with a warrior. It isn't something that makes or breaks the encounter.

All I hear around here is QQ this and QQ that, and doom and gloom, and reroll, and deactivate account.

Have fun. I'll be progression tanking on my tankadin in WotLK, no matter what anyone says, does, nerfs, or buffs.

Still you missed the point on what defines a disadvantage.

No, I didn't. Because it isn't a limitation. It isn't a hassle. And it's barely, barely a disadvantage: in that it requires a person to use their brain instead of being brain dead.

Anyone who tells you differently hasn't actually done it, and they're just arguing about it because they couldn't come up with anything better to argue about.

It's insignificant.

[amadiss]

I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.

You guys need to read up the definitions of 'liability' and 'disadvantage'.

Anything that restricts or changes the normal operation of a fight is a limitation. There are workarounds to everything, but this doesn't mean it's a good thing.

People need to stop making class limitations sound like a good thing.

Hate to break it to you, but it's hardly a limitation.

I "progression" tanked 4 hoursemen on Beta, with another Protection Paladin, in a raid that was, if anything, undergeared.

I've also done it with a warrior. It isn't something that makes or breaks the encounter.

All I hear around here is QQ this and QQ that, and doom and gloom, and reroll, and deactivate account.

Have fun. I'll be progression tanking on my tankadin in WotLK, no matter what anyone says, does, nerfs, or buffs.

Still you missed the point on what defines a disadvantage.

No, I didn't. Because it isn't a limitation. It isn't a hassle. And it's barely, barely a disadvantage: in that it requires a person to use their brain instead of being brain dead.

Anyone who tells you differently hasn't actually done it, and they're just arguing about it because they couldn't come up with anything better to argue about.

It's insignificant.

I didn't say "limitation" and still you miss the point of what is a disadvantage.

[crabcrouton]

They are fully ready and capable and inclined to add a buff to Prot + Holy.

However whether or not they will is another case. Remember what they said about fun deep Prot talents that isn't just a straight buff X by Y%? Yeah... that's one example.

No amount of data we send to them, nor QQing will change their actions. GC has pointed this out time and again like a broken record.

It's better to reserve these issues and try to point out to them problematic areas with screenshots. Personally I'm still hung on the issue of the one target taunt and have been amassing screenshots of RD flat-out failing:

[Your] Avenger's Shield hits boss for 1k.
[DPS] hits boss with Shadowbolt for 4k.
[Boss] hits DPS for 6k.
[Healer] heals DPS for 6k.
[Your] Righteous Defense hits DPS.
[Boss] hits healer for 6k.
[Boss] ability hits healer for 4k.
Healer dies.

Screenshots like that will prove that we have a problem just as screenshots of Ret going oom in in a raid within ~2 mins will.

[Drathian]

I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.

You guys need to read up the definitions of 'liability' and 'disadvantage'.

Anything that restricts or changes the normal operation of a fight is a limitation. There are workarounds to everything, but this doesn't mean it's a good thing.

People need to stop making class limitations sound like a good thing.

Hate to break it to you, but it's hardly a limitation.

I "progression" tanked 4 hoursemen on Beta, with another Protection Paladin, in a raid that was, if anything, undergeared.

I've also done it with a warrior. It isn't something that makes or breaks the encounter.

All I hear around here is QQ this and QQ that, and doom and gloom, and reroll, and deactivate account.

Have fun. I'll be progression tanking on my tankadin in WotLK, no matter what anyone says, does, nerfs, or buffs.

Still you missed the point on what defines a disadvantage.

No, I didn't. Because it isn't a limitation. It isn't a hassle. And it's barely, barely a disadvantage: in that it requires a person to use their brain instead of being brain dead.

Anyone who tells you differently hasn't actually done it, and they're just arguing about it because they couldn't come up with anything better to argue about.

It's insignificant.

I didn't say "limitation" and still you miss the point of what is a disadvantage.

Limitation was referring to another post, one that was quoted in all those quotes.

And I know perfectly well what a disadvantage is. It's when you don't have the advantage, or when there isn't equality.

So ok. Tankadins are disadvantaged in that in the 4-horsemen fight, in that they actually have to communicate when taunts are used instead of brainlessly mashing the taunt button during the transition.

And the point of my posts was highlighting how insignificant that disadvantage is.

Because it is insignificant. I've been there. I've done it. I've done it in the worst case scenario and came through it with no trouble every single time. It is that meaningless.

[Garath.Gorefiend]

lol knaughty! Nope, I'm a realist. It's great to see some of the senior pallys on the forums seeing the extant issues for what they are (eg. worldie).

If you can manage to reconcile in your own head that bringing a prot pally to a raid provides some benefit then more power to you. But as you put it - YOU'RE WRONG.

You, sir, win a fabulous NO PRIZE for having a sense of humour!

Tankadins have the following current issues (at 80)
• One taunt
• Low DPS (partly because RF is too big a threat multiplier, should be 60%, not 90%).
• Lower TPS than other tanks (but still higher than DPS).

Can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

"Taunt" is on GC's "watch list" and will be fixed if the devs think that we RILLY RILLY need one. 4-H isn't enough, as the only game-breaking case is:

Q: I run my 10-man with two tankadins and six DPS none of whom have a taunt! How do I do 4-h?
A: Spec out of stupid IRL. Balancing a raid is much easier than before, but not completely gone from consideration.

If Tier-8 needs a single-target taunt, then either we get one, or they tweak RF mechanics to single-taunt if you target BadGuy and multi-taunt if you target GoddGuy.

The other two issues are acknowledged as needing fixes.

Too lazy to look up the references, but GC has said our DPS/TPS will be buffed to be competitive with other tanks, and raised it again in the same post that said "Ret nerfed into the ground for being OP".

Holy needs a massive DPS boost, which is also ack'd by GC.

They'd got till the end of November to fix prot.

Did I miss any major issue?

Oh, and what do we bring? Equiv tank to warrior, a couple of "unique snowflake" buffs and no real tanking weaknesses.

I'll tank expansion because I'm our guild's most reliable tank (not best, but I show up). Oh, and I'm like, super anal about PPPPP.

You missed a couple knaughty.

We are the most vulnerable to fear, silence and mana burn effects of all the tanks.

We have the lease tools to deal with casters.

[knaughty]

They are fully ready and capable and inclined to add a buff to Prot + Holy.

However whether or not they will is another case. Remember what they said about fun deep Prot talents that isn't just a straight buff X by Y%? Yeah... that's one example.

I am goddamn loving post-patch tanking.

• Hardly every have to drink, even in non-heroic 5-mans with Sunwell tanking gear on (BoSanc, of course).

• Half-CD taunt

• Hammer is AWESOME! Though I need to get better at getting shit in front of me in close quarters. 2.4, tanking trash, I barely cared if it was in front of me. Tiny range and strict facing requirements are more painful than I was expecting. May need to zoom my viewpoint in a little from 100 yards up.

Just so much more active/reactive, and way more tools for speed-pulling and controlling adds.

Only painful thing is 30 sec CD on AS. WTB glyph of "Your AS has 15-20 sec CD" instead of "single target".

[Levantine]

You missed a couple knaughty.

We are the most vulnerable to fear, silence and mana burn effects of all the tanks.

We have the lease tools to deal with casters.

Underlined parts are not going to effect tanks anymore, said the blues.

[Grimmal]

Underlined parts are not going to effect tanks anymore, said the blues.

Did they ever say this, or did they say they would try to limit them? It was limiting them if I recall.