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GC damage control post #2

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Postby Bobness » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:18 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:It's not a dps spec, any dps you spec for will hurt your healing output. Thats what talents are, to define your role. If you increase baseline damage, you negate the effect of dps talents within ret.


This is indeed true, however i'm fairly sure that it has been stated, That Holy Paladin's should be able to DPS

1) Whilst soloing.
2) Whilst not required to Heal in a Raid at a specific point in time.


whilst Holy Shock cooldown is better at 6 sec, seals & judgements are pretty much gutted for Holy....
Last edited by Bobness on Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sherck » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:31 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
sherck wrote:Sure, if you WANT to respec in order to DPS. I don't. I have played this toon Holy from level 10 and want to continue to play him Holy.

That's really not applicable logic. You're right about the gear point (hit aside, so we're not talking about fully interchangable), but this is just flawed.

It's not a dps spec, any dps you spec for will hurt your healing output. Thats what talents are, to define your role. If you increase baseline damage, you negate the effect of dps talents within ret.

I'm not seeing how your resistance to other playstyles and a sort of internal roleplaying desire shoudl effect class wide balance.


Not asking for class-wide balance. These changes had NOTHING to do with class-wide balance. They had everything to do with Ret Spec balance.

Everything. Prot and Holy just got axed because they share the same class with Ret.

WoW is about doing what you want to do. Want to PvP? Sure. Want to tank? Sure. Want to heal? Sure. Want to go to lowbie areas and gank level 1 guys? Sure. Want to make a million gold and buy all your epics? Sure. Want to raid? Sure.

The number one thing you have to do in this game is kill stuff. No matter what role you pick from the above list, you still have to kill stuff to achieve that roll.

So, even though I am a healer, I still have to kill stuff to farm mats for my raids, do my dailies, grind rep to get the gear I need to be a better healer, etc. I still need to kill stuff.

I would like to be able to kill stuff in a reasonable amount of time without having to respec and regear in order to do so.

Blizzard is not giving me that option.

Call me hard-headed if you wish. But every spec should be viable in order to kill stuff. Holy is feeling very unable to do that with the continous nerfs to our damage dealing capability.

If you need to balance Ret, balance Ret. Don't kill the entire class.

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Postby Io.Draco » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:37 am

Bobness wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Sigh....just leave it be Knaughty you won't break common sense in this bunch

Seriously WTB back the comunity this site had when it had started just for a fee mnths... :S


Ahh yes the good old days..... Back then we didn't hark back to the good old days...

People are just venting... this thread will be forgotten in a few days, it's no big deal.


Back then we where fucked up royaly , yet we didn't have so much whine as we have now...
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Postby sherck » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:43 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Bobness wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Sigh....just leave it be Knaughty you won't break common sense in this bunch

Seriously WTB back the comunity this site had when it had started just for a fee mnths... :S


Ahh yes the good old days..... Back then we didn't hark back to the good old days...

People are just venting... this thread will be forgotten in a few days, it's no big deal.


Back then we where fucked up royaly , yet we didn't have so much whine as we have now...


Ahhh...but the closer you get to the peak, the steeper it is and the harder it is to go those last few feet.

When you are miles away, it is easy to worry about the fewer "big" issues, i.e our theat sucks, our survivability sucks, etc.

When you are "within a few %," then a massive number of "smaller" issue arise that everyone loves to debate.

Don't know if I have actually helped move the conservation along, but I understand that when you get more traffic, you are typically talking about smaller, closer issues.

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:55 am

sherck wrote:Not asking for class-wide balance. These changes had NOTHING to do with class-wide balance. They had everything to do with Ret Spec balance.

They have everything to do with class wide balance. One change to one effects three. If holy dps suffers because ret was overpowered, I'm not seeing a gamebreaking issue. Prot is another story as a major part of its role it based on damage output in combination with modifiers, but quite honestly, I'm not seeing a problem there either.

sherck wrote:Blizzard is not giving me that option.

Eh, I could write a whole post on the dps potential of holy priests, spellpower or not.

But thats not really the point, the extention of what you're asking for is fewer variables, less divergence. Fewer talents, in fact, and a weaker game overall.

It's hard to see that as you stand in a field waiting for mobs to die, I know, I've been there, but its the truth.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:58 am

Bobness wrote:This is indeed true, however i'm fairly sure that it has been stated, That Holy Paladin's should be able to DPS

1) Whilst soloing.
2) Whilst not required to Heal in a Raid at a specific point in time.


whilst Holy Shock cooldown is better at 6 sec, seals & judgements are pretty much gutted for Holy....

I'm not saying its a bad thing, or even something they should avoid. It'd be nice if they could make it happen, but when balancing the three roles for pve and pvp, holy dps should be considered along the same lines as prot healing or resto bear tanking. Nice if you can get it, but it shouldn't negatively impact the game to be achieved.
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Postby elfjorc » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:02 am

They've already said Holy DPS is a concern.

If they'd buffed it already and were nerfing SoV/SoR after it would kinda counteract the buff, if they do it after they don't run into that. Not to mention it isn't a pressing thing to happen right now, as long as they have it done by Nov 13, which is still two weeks away, time for them to discuss whatever, focusing on raid dps from classes is probably their priority before then.
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Postby Bobness » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:04 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
sherck wrote:Not asking for class-wide balance. These changes had NOTHING to do with class-wide balance. They had everything to do with Ret Spec balance.

They have everything to do with class wide balance. One change to one effects three. If holy dps suffers because ret was overpowered, I'm not seeing a gamebreaking issue. Prot is another story as a major part of its role it based on damage output in combination with modifiers, but quite honestly, I'm not seeing a problem there either.

sherck wrote:Blizzard is not giving me that option.

Eh, I could write a whole post on the dps potential of holy priests, spellpower or not.

But thats not really the point, the extention of what you're asking for is fewer variables, less divergence. Fewer talents, in fact, and a weaker game overall.

It's hard to see that as you stand in a field waiting for mobs to die, I know, I've been there, but its the truth.


As it pans out though it wouldn't be in any way game breaking for Holy to "DPS" Quicker... whilst Dual specs are all fine & well, some people enjoy the playstyle of "Holy" Paladins, they're DPS appears to be pretty woeful ..

Seal/Judge/HolyShock... that's piss poor in itself but consider that reduction in output from Seal/Judge & Gc's comments on Holy DPS. something is amiss with Holy Paladins..
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Postby Fizzgig » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:48 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Back then we where fucked up royaly , yet we didn't have so much whine as we have now...


I am quoting this for truth and not typing QFT for emphasis.

I am coming to these forums less and less as it's more and more becoming the paladin class forums on the official boards. Everything isn't perfect but some of you people are arguing and bitching for the sake of bitching because at some point in your WoW career some jerkoff told you that you sucked cause you were a pally tank.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:51 am

Personally my heart isn't broken over these changes. Threat hasn't been an issue so far, so I'm not really concerned. JoL needed something and it's good that they didn't nerf it more. The Seal nerf sucks, but it's not a huge deal. I don't play Ret, and they needed a nerf.
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Postby Dianora » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:17 am

elfjorc wrote:They've already said Holy DPS is a concern.

If they'd buffed it already and were nerfing SoV/SoR after it would kinda counteract the buff, if they do it after they don't run into that. Not to mention it isn't a pressing thing to happen right now, as long as they have it done by Nov 13, which is still two weeks away, time for them to discuss whatever, focusing on raid dps from classes is probably their priority before then.



We're likely to be 2 weeks away from 3.0.3, the nerf patch. You think their priority will be to fix Holy/Protection DPS after WotLK? No, their priority will be to keep Northrend server up and running. Enjoy the nerfed Holy/Protection DPS for a while because they literally have a much bigger fish to fry. I sincerely don't see DEV coming back to 'fix' Holy/Protection until Ret is further nerfed and then 3.0.4, if we're lucky.
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Postby Obrimos » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:19 am

Fizzgig wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
Back then we where fucked up royaly , yet we didn't have so much whine as we have now...


I am quoting this for truth and not typing QFT for emphasis.

I am coming to these forums less and less as it's more and more becoming the paladin class forums on the official boards. Everything isn't perfect but some of you people are arguing and bitching for the sake of bitching because at some point in your WoW career some jerkoff told you that you sucked cause you were a pally tank.


Wait, what? Seriously? People on here are bitching about the math and the amount of misinformation about Ret and all you have to say is "LAWL UR THE GEN FORUMS".

Seriously. This is insipid at it's finest. This board continues to be a great place to discuss things and it's especially important for us to pay attention to class-wide nerfs. It's especially important to point out when we're numerically behind everyone, even if it is by a couple percentage points, because history has proven that this is the difference between buff-boting and tanking.

Eternal vigiliance is the price of equality. Nerfs only win when good men do nothing.
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Postby elfjorc » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:20 am

Dianora wrote:
elfjorc wrote:They've already said Holy DPS is a concern.

If they'd buffed it already and were nerfing SoV/SoR after it would kinda counteract the buff, if they do it after they don't run into that. Not to mention it isn't a pressing thing to happen right now, as long as they have it done by Nov 13, which is still two weeks away, time for them to discuss whatever, focusing on raid dps from classes is probably their priority before then.



We're likely to be 2 weeks away from 3.0.3, the nerf patch. You think their priority will be to fix Holy/Protection DPS after WotLK? No, their priority will be to keep Northrend server up and running. Enjoy the nerfed Holy/Protection DPS for a while because they literally have a much bigger fish to fry. I sincerely don't see DEV coming back to 'fix' Holy/Protection until Ret is further nerfed and then 3.0.4, if we're lucky.


There can still be changes between now and Nov 13. Hell, they could even hotfix things in between now and then if they really really wanted to. Doom and gloom FTL
Last edited by elfjorc on Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fizzgig » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:20 am

Dianora wrote:
elfjorc wrote:They've already said Holy DPS is a concern.

If they'd buffed it already and were nerfing SoV/SoR after it would kinda counteract the buff, if they do it after they don't run into that. Not to mention it isn't a pressing thing to happen right now, as long as they have it done by Nov 13, which is still two weeks away, time for them to discuss whatever, focusing on raid dps from classes is probably their priority before then.



We're likely to be 2 weeks away from 3.0.3, the nerf patch. You think their priority will be to fix Holy/Protection DPS after WotLK? No, their priority will be to keep Northrend server up and running. Enjoy the nerfed Holy/Protection DPS for a while because they literally have a much bigger fish to fry. I sincerely don't see DEV coming back to 'fix' Holy/Protection until Ret is further nerfed and then 3.0.4, if we're lucky.


I dont even need to read your posts anymore, I just see your avatar and know "the dev's hate us they dont do anything for us" is coming in some form or another.
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Postby Fizzgig » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:23 am

Obrimos wrote:
Fizzgig wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
Back then we where fucked up royaly , yet we didn't have so much whine as we have now...


I am quoting this for truth and not typing QFT for emphasis.

I am coming to these forums less and less as it's more and more becoming the paladin class forums on the official boards. Everything isn't perfect but some of you people are arguing and bitching for the sake of bitching because at some point in your WoW career some jerkoff told you that you sucked cause you were a pally tank.


Wait, what? Seriously? People on here are bitching about the math and the amount of misinformation about Ret and all you have to say is "LAWL UR THE GEN FORUMS".

Seriously. This is insipid at it's finest. This board continues to be a great place to discuss things and it's especially important for us to pay attention to class-wide nerfs. It's especially important to point out when we're numerically behind everyone, even if it is by a couple percentage points, because history has proven that this is the difference between buff-boting and tanking.

Eternal vigiliance is the price of equality. Nerfs only win when good men do nothing.


Show me where there's math at all in this thread showing how Ret cannot keep up a dps rotation. Or where we're that far behind other tank threat at 80. I love this place I'm not saying that, but since wrath has come out the stickies and moderated posts alone show that there is a large portion of the community here doing nothing but complaining and flaming unjustly. I applaud Lore and the other mods for trying to keep it on lock down, its just disheartening.
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