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Just a idea to fix our dps

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Postby Andryana » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:20 am

Boost ShoR to 150% BV and HoTR to 6 times weapon DPS(just making up numbers), wouldn't that be better?

I was thinking about Righteous Fury vs Defensive Stance, it's 90% threat vs 45% threat, isn't that handicapping us in terms of our possible damage output?
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Postby Khayne » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:04 am

Andryana wrote:Boost ShoR to 150% BV and HoTR to 6 times weapon DPS(just making up numbers), wouldn't that be better?

I was thinking about Righteous Fury vs Defensive Stance, it's 90% threat vs 45% threat, isn't that handicapping us in terms of our possible damage output?


Yes...and it´s why few paladins in these forums have allready mentioned their disliking of the huge modifier we got.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:28 am

Andryana wrote:I was thinking about Righteous Fury vs Defensive Stance, it's 90% threat vs 45% threat, isn't that handicapping us in terms of our possible damage output?


Yup, RF should be 60%, not 90% - like the old untalented version.

And DPS should be increased by (calculator) about 15% to compensate for the RF change to leave TPS the same.

Course, TPS is a bit low, so boost again to have TPS match warrior TPS. Bear is being nerfed a little?

As to how they boost it - the trick is it needs to be inaccessible or unusable to ret - so it can't be a base ability (seal/judge) change unless it's talent-based and very deep.

1-h spec is a good option, so is buffing HotR.

Something I suggested that was lost in the QQ is having HotR do 9-12 times weapon damage, split across targets hit, max 3. IE: use the "saber lash" mechanic. Leaves multi-target TPS/DPS unchanged, gives us a nice boost for single target.

I would prefer something that either boosted everything evenly, or if it did boost a particular thing more, that was seal/judge. ShoR was too big a chunk of our TPS/DPS pre-nerf.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:30 am

Dianora wrote:
Majiben wrote:
Dianora wrote:I have full faith in the intent and ability of Blizzard screwing us over. I've yet to be wrong.
You've said that before in other threads. Now /shoo if you don't have any ideas.


Hey, this is only the third time since pre-beta that Blizzard have gone ahead and done a major nerf with minimal amount of testing. Beta->WoW, TBCBeta->TBC, WotLKBeta->WotLK. I call that a pattern. If they don't intent on driving people away from playing paladin, then they're rather talented at doing just that.

And yet somehow paladins still exist.

Weird.
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Postby Magnusharkov » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:00 am

In my opinion we have to increase our white damage substantially. Its the only way we will be able to do similar damage levels to other tanks without drastically outthreating them due to our silly threat modifier.

My idea, add something to Judgement of the Just to drastically increase physical (white) dps. This would also increase Hammer damage.

I.e. Your weapon DPS is increased by 5/10% of your attack power.

Another possible option would be some kind of BV->Weapon DPS talent.

Both of these however suffer from a potentially dangerous double scaling from strength.
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Postby Io.Draco » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:09 am

Well if you guys want us to have righteous fury threat nerfed , and for us to do more damage , How about this for a idea?

Make Hammer of Righteous our 21 pointer , change Blessing of Sanctuary to our 11 pointer

And then add a 51 pointer along the lines of...

Decreases the increased threat gen of your righteous fury spell by 45% , but all your damage is increased by 100%

Could have some number tweaking...
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Postby Torquemada » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:34 am

I'm trying to find a reason to hate your idea... but I like it. Yes please.
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Postby Splug » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:48 am

Should just give paladins death touch and a pony. Well, technically the pony was a lv 40 skill. But death touch would fix damage problems.

Really though - an increase to boss armor landing at the same time as the seal nerf is going to hit warrior, druid, and DK tanks fairly hard too. Has anyone run the numbers on that yet? I just got back after being out of town for about a week, and now I have a fairly huge project on my hands so I'm pretty far behind on everything and won't have the time I usually do to read every thread - but the searching I'd done hadn't shown hard numbers on what the damage/threat loss to both sides of the fence are.

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Postby Io.Draco » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:50 am

10% more armor is 10% less dmg for warriors/dks/druids right?

We lost 10% dmg if numbers are not wrong with the seal and judge nerf

And if people are true we where doing less dmg and less threat pre nerf aswell so..
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Postby Splug » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:05 am

Io.Draco wrote:10% more armor is 10% less dmg for warriors/dks/druids right?

We lost 10% dmg if numbers are not wrong with the seal and judge nerf

And if people are true we where doing less dmg and less threat pre nerf aswell so..
The armor formula's fairly complicated; I don't think 10% more armor translates directly into 10% less damage taken. If it did, talents like Toughness would be more critical than IRF. Also, that's 10% before armor-reducing debuffs, so it'll really be more than a 10% change relative to post-debuff armor. Net result: I'm not sure, hence suggesting someone actually calculate it.

That said, from my experience in Naxx paladins had been putting out slightly more damage than other tanks while tanking... and were ahead of most of the raid (by that I mean "everyone but 5k+ dps broken classes such as hunters") if you include trash, for that matter. Though that's about two weeks out of date; I've seen what I needed to and probably will be waiting for wotlk to hit Northrend much more.

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Postby Steve » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:37 am

Someone check my math/reasoning here.

If DR% = armor/[armor+400+85*(5.5*level-265.5)]:

Let X = current armor. Let Y = base armor. Let level = 83.

[(X + 0.1Y)/(X+0.1Y+16635)]/[X/(X+16635)]

0.1Y is the 10% increase on base armor prior to armor debuffs, while X is the armor you'd expect to have on the target taking into account debuffs.

If you know both the likely current armor of a raid boss after debuffs, as well as its base armor before debuffs, you can calculate the effect of a 10% armor increase using the above -- assuming the formula armor hasn't changed in WotLK.

Obviously it's reasonably involved to calculate. I think you could simplify the above if we know the exact number we can expect debuffs to reduce armor by. At that point we can express Y as X and likely simplify the formula a great deal.
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Postby Havn » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:44 am

Knaughty wrote:
Andryana wrote:I was thinking about Righteous Fury vs Defensive Stance, it's 90% threat vs 45% threat, isn't that handicapping us in terms of our possible damage output?


Yup, RF should be 60%, not 90% - like the old untalented version.

And DPS should be increased by (calculator) about 15% to compensate for the RF change to leave TPS the same.

Course, TPS is a bit low, so boost again to have TPS match warrior TPS. Bear is being nerfed a little?

As to how they boost it - the trick is it needs to be inaccessible or unusable to ret - so it can't be a base ability (seal/judge) change unless it's talent-based and very deep.

1-h spec is a good option, so is buffing HotR.

Something I suggested that was lost in the QQ is having HotR do 9-12 times weapon damage, split across targets hit, max 3. IE: use the "saber lash" mechanic. Leaves multi-target TPS/DPS unchanged, gives us a nice boost for single target.

I would prefer something that either boosted everything evenly, or if it did boost a particular thing more, that was seal/judge. ShoR was too big a chunk of our TPS/DPS pre-nerf.


Saber lash mechanic would be amazing on HotR.
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Postby Zibey » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:07 am

I have better one.
RF back to 60% coeff, and buff our dps acordingly. SoR and SoV should get omg-buffed and become 1hander only seals, ShotR should get buffed so it deals dmg equal to shield slam ^^.
SoR and SoV change would be also gift from god for holy.
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Postby Dantriges » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:40 am

They probaly take the easy way out, leave JotL as it´s current state and add judgements and seal to Shield of the Templar
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Postby Magnusharkov » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:52 am

Another option. Make reckoning have a much higher uptime (I'm thinking to the magnitude of it being active up to 50% of the time at 5/5). Ideally through a mechanic that doesn't rely on being hit. Hey presto white damage increased, soloing made easier (plus more judgement procs).
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