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GC's announcement as to our nerfs

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Dianora » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:58 pm

crabcrouton wrote:Yep I'm definitely holding out on their pass after these nerfs.

It's plain as day that this is excessive but all we can do is wait and let them test.


Yes crabrouton, there is a Santa Claus.
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Postby Khayne » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:02 pm

Now i´ll make my try at some easy math, please point out if (and when) i fail:

Ret paladin regen sources. I´ll presume here that we´d have a mana pool of round 7k. that numbers is straight from my...i´ll adjust numbers later once i hear what mana we got. Remember that there will be no difference in mana pool from prot to ret (neither has mana increase talents, neither has any on gear) so a prot paladin total mana will work as well here.

JotW, 15% of 4114, divided by 8,multiplied by 5 (judgement cd, this model presumes you´d prioritize judgement over other skills. Best case scenario for mana)=386mp5

JoW=1% of total mana, last i heard it could only proc once/4 secs (wowhead had link to EJ thread, was 1 month old though so dunno if the that internal cooldown exists anymore, but it was nerfed from the 2% then to 1% now, i´ll go with that) so for best case scenario that you land a hit every 4seconsd exactly, and get proc on it, 1% of 7000 every 4 seconds, or 87,5mp5

Divine Plea= 25% of total mana, every minute. 146mp5

Replenishment=0,25% total mana, will be practically permanently on us if mana is an issue. 87,5mp5

Spiritual Attunement= totally dependant on how much raid damage the encounter has, and how much SoB&JoC cause damage, will have to leave this out for now.

Without SA:mana regen is at 707mp5

EDIT: allready forgot damn BoW here...most of the conclusions later on will still stay though. We can´t sustain consecration at all, all others spells are pretty fair game as long as we dont use too much FoL´s. Exorcism and HoW will propably be usable as long as we take that into account and save that mana on FoL&Sacred Shields (rather clip a FoL from here and there, the increased crit for that instant FoL while having Sheath of light looks too good to pass up)

Mana usage:

Crusader strike:8% of base mana, 10 times a minute. 274mp5 used.
Divine storm: 12% base mana, 6 times a minute=>247 mp5 used.
Judgements:5% of base mana, 7.5 times a minute. 129mp5 used.

Rotation of these 3 abilities uses 650mp5, can hold that rotation forever.

Let´s add consecrate to rotation for max dps.
22% of base mana, every 8 seconds. 567 mp5 usage.

with full dps rotation (non-exorcise/holy wrath/HoW), you´re losing 510mp5, 7k mana pool depletes in 69 seconds.

Seems we can forget even thinking about consecrate, how about 1 FoL every 8 seconds (i think you´d actually have more close to 2 chances/8secs thanks to all the crit chance buffs, debuffs, and a strong talented base crit and increased judgement crit rate from talents). 1FoL costs 7% of base mana. 58mp5 going there, so the basic rotation+1FoL/8 makes you lose 1mp5, 7000 mana pool lasts....long.

I guess they really killed off concecrate from pve rotation here, and we´re based with a chance of casting few helping buffs here and there, but not even consider using all cooldowns the speed they come up.

Forgot Sacred Shield, i think it´s reasonable to think we´ll pop this one every time it´s off cooldown on something, maybe on yourself to mitigate some of the JoC damage you do. 12% base mana, twice a minute. 82mp5

Also Hand spells, both cost 6%base mana, 2 min cd on each. i´ll count that as 6% base mana/minute here. 21mp5, cheap-o casts.

so with hands, non-consecrate rotation, sacred shielding and casting 1 FoL every 8 seconds=losing mana at rate of 104mp5. 7000 mana pool depletes in 336 seconds, or abit over 5 and a half minutes.

Doesn´t sound that murderous in pve tbh, but i still think the regen nerf on JotW is abit too high. SA will give some mana in ofc, but then again you dont want to prio judgement over other cooldowns, you wont allways land a hit exactly when JoW internal cd opens and i believe we would have the AoW procs to use more than 1 FoL/8secs. Also we would like to use our anti-UD/demon abilities and HoW i think, i mean there should be plenty of UD opponents in raids like Naxx.

Not to mention i thought our sustained dps wasn´t too much at level 80 allready now, when we could keep consecration in rotation. Dropping that off will cause an immediate dps nerf.

I´ll post this now as it´s allways easier to spot mistakes in other persons work than your own.
Last edited by Khayne on Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fizzgig » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:03 pm

Our Ret paladin was first or 2nd on every fight through BT/Hyjal last week. They needed to be nerfed, of course its going to lower our threat and we'll be compensated.

As it stands there isn't a dps within a mile's reach of me and I'm keeping up with our warrior and druid tanks without JoL. I'd like more actual dps than threat increase and I hope they do that but they've already stated 100000 times that they dont want threat to matter. It doesnt currently and I think they're going to keep going with it. Chill the hell out for the love of god.
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Postby Darus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:03 pm

Extremely unmotivated how nerfing seal and judgement of vengeance will in any way have an effect on retribution paladins. Its mildly said retarded.
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Postby Khayne » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:23 pm

I´d like to just mention that a "ret paladin pwned in our lvl 70 raid" doesn´t mean that much when you try compare the damage they do. Sure i annihilated all other dps in karazhan raid too, but that´s because 2/3 of instance mobs in there die before hunters get more than 2 arrows into air. i see everyone say how they "Aoe tank a pack or 2 at a time in BT".

Now consider what having consecration on those 2 packs at a time mobs, having plate and being next to tank wholl grab it anyway with his aoe moves so i dont need to worry as much if i happen to overaggro one single trash mob once in a while so i can open up on aoe sooner than anyone else.

It flaws whole damage meter if you look at whole instance. Not to mention even bosses die in 1-2 minutes each, go go affliction rotations when your CoD never gets to go off and do damage?

We own at burst damage, and that´s what all trash pretty much is now. Speedbumps that die in the hail of aoe or in 5 seconds/mob (conveniently letting us get 2 melee hits and both strikes off, while casters get 1 cast off and 2nd gets cut off when mob dies). We can time our attacks start within a second once tank gets his first hits in, casters dps starts hitting in ~3 seconds later (start casting when tank goes in, 2,5sec casts with half a second flight times). When average mob life-expectancy is what it is right now, that starts to matter.

Let´s get back on that sustained dps pwn once we´re in wotlk and fights last something or we actually need to CC something or watch out for aggro.

-EDIT-

This doesn´t mean some nerfs weren´t maybe in order, but the whole magnitude here just looks to me to go quite overboard.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:42 pm

Dianora wrote:Yes crabrouton, there is a Santa Claus.

Awww why you gotta be so mean?

(warning: offtopic)
Besides, if LK still has lolret / subpar tankadins and a 2-button healing style, I'll take that with stride. One of the reasons I rolled a Pally tank back a couple of years ago was because they were the underdogs. I'm sure a lot of people did so too from the sentiment on the threads here in the early days of the beta. Despite BC's precise goals to keep us down and cripple us, the class went really far.

So be it if we're not represented in their arena eSports or have trouble healing or can't tank some bosses... Classes like Warriors or Hunters or Rogues have never felt the sting of being bottom rung and will never be motivated like Pallies. Guys like the one Ret paladin in my guild will continue to dominate the charts just because he's so damn hungry for it. Put him on another class without that kind of down-trodden motivation (read: good sustained dps) and I guarantee his dps will fall.

If they want to keep us down then that's fine, b/c quite frankly the Paladin class is fueled on a high octane mix of indignation, disobedience and pent up red-haired-stepchildism. We eat nerfs, spit skill and don a Proletariat complex.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:48 pm

I hate people who try to keep my class an "underdog" because they like sucking. GTFO and play naked if you want to suck don't try to drag the rest of us down with you.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:56 pm

Karock wrote:I hate people who try to keep my class an "underdog" because they like sucking. GTFO and play naked if you want to suck don't try to drag the rest of us down with you.

There are better ways to say you disagree than to use that kind of language. You won't win any points with the mods that way I'll guarantee you that.

You're entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine.
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Postby Ilara » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:56 pm

The aim is all tanks equal. none better, none worse. No nifty toys to make X better than Y The aim is "My warrior is better than your pally." (or vice-versa) is an extinct point of view.
I'm no pro with the math or the mods, but I'll be out there trying my damnest to make sure this comes to light.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:02 pm

crabcrouton wrote:
Karock wrote:I hate people who try to keep my class an "underdog" because they like sucking. GTFO and play naked if you want to suck don't try to drag the rest of us down with you.

There are better ways to say you disagree than to use that kind of language. You won't win any points with the mods that way I'll guarantee you that.

You're entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine.


There really is no better way to say that I hate people like that, because I hate them.

Like I said, if you want to suck then suck on your own, don't try to drag the rest of us down with you (not that I think anything you post here actually could... or that you need to do anything for us to be dragged down =P)

As well I didn't say anything insulting you (unless your self worth is tied up in how I feel about you), I don't see why mods would have a problem with it.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:24 pm

In the world I live in, if you tell someone to GTFO, you've definitely insulted them, but eh, if you didn't mean anything by it then I'll accept it as pointless blather.

Check my profile and look at my posts. I'm actively testing and showing people my results rather than crying about it. You're not going to change Bliz's mind by whining. You'll change their minds by finding out trouble spots and letting them know so they can investigate (sound familiar to something that someone in power said recently?).

Based on my personal experience:

- I'm definitely letting them know that unlike Rogues (by extension cat Druids), Warriors, DKs and Enhance Shamans who can solo indefinitely without much concern for their resource bars, Ret Paladins are the exception. This needs to be relooked at.

- Ret raid dps is lower now but not crippled as some are making it out to be. We were maybe in 3rd place before, we're probably closer to 7th now.

- Ret utility is the biggest problem. Mana starvation does hit us at the FoLs and the Sacred Shield, not to mention Exorcism/Holy Wrath/all of the Hands. This also needs to be looked at.

- Prot's tps is lower than the other three tanks. Druids especially.

Lastly I'll let them know that these issues make Pallies weaker but none of them are going to destroy the game. I'm unconvinced this has the kind of brevity that affected us previously. If you want to say otherwise, go test it for yourself.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:01 pm

crabcrouton wrote: If you want to say otherwise, go test it for yourself.

QFT.

That said, here comes blather from someone without a beta key.

I ran as ret for most of our Brute kills. Tanked him a could of times pre-patch, and both times since, as we no longer bother having people re-spec.

Being Ret DPS at brutallus was an exercise in resource management. Consecration was an optional ability that you only used if you got lucky with mana regen. You'd get a few consecrates in, usually be able to exorcise on CD, and you aimed to be OOM at 5m 59s (or you stuffed up).

Sounds like current mana tuning for Ret is close to that. You can use your basic DPS cycle literally forever. You can consecrate / exorcise some, but you'll need to pot and watch the blue bar to tune when you can use it, when you can't.

So long as ret DPS without consecrate is decent, then the situation is fine.

Using an AE spell as part of a standard DPS rotation has always seemed a bit screwy to me anyway. They're expensive!
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:41 pm

Knaughty wrote:
crabcrouton wrote: You'd get a few consecrates in, usually be able to exorcise on CD, and you aimed to be OOM at 5m 59s (or you stuffed up).

Sounds like current mana tuning for Ret is close to that. You can use your basic DPS cycle literally forever. You can consecrate / exorcise some, but you'll need to pot and watch the blue bar to tune when you can use it, when you can't.

So long as ret DPS without consecrate is decent, then the situation is fine.

Using an AE spell as part of a standard DPS rotation has always seemed a bit screwy to me anyway. They're expensive!

This would be reasonable if it was similar across the board with other mana using DPS classes. From what I've seen so far, this is not the case. If mana burning encounters will remain in the game and potion spamming is gone then you can't have class/specs tuned this finely as in any complex encounters they will go OOM.

Unless you subscribe to the 'you can heal so you should suck' paradigm there is no reason that a ret pally should have mana issues on trivial encounters. Nor should any other class/spec for that matter.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:55 pm

baghead wrote:This would be reasonable if it was similar across the board with other mana using DPS classes. From what I've seen so far, this is not the case.

:shock:

Yeah, because mages and shadow priests never go OOM, warlocks never need to life-tap and hunters never need to switch to Viper. Not bothering to list the rest, don't know their mechanics well enough.

Wait...

Most (every?) mana using class has "burst mode" and "endurance mode".

Oh, except pre-nerf Ret pallies, who use "burst mode" forever and never have to use mana recovery abilities.

The whole point of a mana bar is that if you go all out, you run out of mana (eventually) and have to do something to either moderate you use (skip consecrate) or emphasise recovery (hand of sacrifice the MT).
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:07 pm

Knaughty wrote:Most (every?) mana using class has "burst mode" and "endurance mode".

In fact very few specs HAD real 'burst mode'. In general pre 3.0, most mana using classes didn't have any burst at all. Or if they did have 'burst' it was by a trivial amount. Really only mages had real 'burst mana consumption/dps' through arcane.

The did have 'higher' dps versus 'lower' dps modes, but in general, you pretty much had to stay in 'higher' dps mode to be competitive.
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