GC's announcement as to our nerfs

[Obrimos]

Has the JoW or the JotW nerf hit live yet?

[Steve]

Are these experiences being relayed a product of Live/Sunwell raids or Beta Naxxramas raids?

There are a few important differences related to gear and encounter length that make any conclusions drawn from level 70 paladins in Sunwell of dubious value.

Edit: To be clear, I myself have not drawn any conclusions regarding these specific nerfs. I'm just apprehensive of any attempt to make mana function like a truly finite resource.

[Lore]

The only changes that were announced as being hotfixed were the JotW (that's Judgements of the Wise, not Judgement of Wisdom) and Seal/Judgement of Command nerfs. As far as I'm aware, nothing else sneaked in with them.

And yeah, our Ret pally didn't seem to have any problems at all. He still beat all our Rogues on KJ.

[Elsie]

The only changes that were announced as being hotfixed were the JotW (that's Judgements of the Wise, not Judgement of Wisdom) and Seal/Judgement of Command nerfs. As far as I'm aware, nothing else sneaked in with them.

And yeah, our Ret pally didn't seem to have any problems at all. He still beat all our Rogues on KJ.

How did he compare on Brutallus? I'm more curious to see the result in different armor (brut is 7700 where KJ is 6600). PM me the WWS?

[fafhrd]

And yeah, our Ret pally didn't seem to have any problems at all. He still beat all our Rogues on KJ.

She?

Also, doesn't http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=46474 make this something of a given?

[Splug]

I don't think we wws'd our run, but I think I remember recount looked something like:

Tri-spec fury-ish warrior (10.0%)
Moonkin (~8.0%)
BM Hunter (7.5%)
Glaive Rogue (7.3%)
Retribution Paladin (7.2%)

I forget the exact percentages for 2-5, but I recall our ret paladin being fairly high and that after Nomepunter it was all pretty close.

-Splug

[Lore]

And yeah, our Ret pally didn't seem to have any problems at all. He still beat all our Rogues on KJ.

She?

Also, doesn't http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=46474 make this something of a given?

Ret Pallies don't do much in the way of Holy damage anymore, but it does help yeah.

On the other hand, Phase 5 lasted about 30 seconds.

[Lore]

The only changes that were announced as being hotfixed were the JotW (that's Judgements of the Wise, not Judgement of Wisdom) and Seal/Judgement of Command nerfs. As far as I'm aware, nothing else sneaked in with them.

And yeah, our Ret pally didn't seem to have any problems at all. He still beat all our Rogues on KJ.

How did he compare on Brutallus? I'm more curious to see the result in different armor (brut is 7700 where KJ is 6600). PM me the WWS?

Haven't done Brut since the nerfs were hotfixed in. We did KJ late Monday night.

[Dianora]

The only changes that were announced as being hotfixed were the JotW (that's Judgements of the Wise, not Judgement of Wisdom) and Seal/Judgement of Command nerfs. As far as I'm aware, nothing else sneaked in with them.

And yeah, our Ret pally didn't seem to have any problems at all. He still beat all our Rogues on KJ.

I assumed your ret pally was using Seal of Blood, thus not directly affected by the rest of the seal/judge nerf yet?

[fafhrd]

assuming wws uploads are working today i can probably get your a post-hotfix brut and kj when i get home elsie.

will trade for pix of elsie on lore action

[Lore]

The only changes that were announced as being hotfixed were the JotW (that's Judgements of the Wise, not Judgement of Wisdom) and Seal/Judgement of Command nerfs. As far as I'm aware, nothing else sneaked in with them.

And yeah, our Ret pally didn't seem to have any problems at all. He still beat all our Rogues on KJ.

I assumed your ret pally was using Seal of Blood, thus not directly affected by the rest of the seal/judge nerf yet?

Yeah actually now that I think about it I don't know why he would have seen anything different on KJ at all. There's so much raid damage + the regen buff from the dragons would make the JotW change meaningless.

So, nevermind, carry on.

[steadypal]

The only changes that were announced as being hotfixed were the JotW (that's Judgements of the Wise, not Judgement of Wisdom) and Seal/Judgement of Command nerfs. As far as I'm aware, nothing else sneaked in with them.

And yeah, our Ret pally didn't seem to have any problems at all. He still beat all our Rogues on KJ.

my seals/judges are doing alot less dmg since monday night

[Karock]

The current plan is to not nerf SoB at all anyways so it's just a nerf to soloing/pvp (normally) damage.

In fact they hotfixed SoB back up on the beta before it went down.

EDIT: and since mana is basically no problem in raids it's just a nerf to small groups/soloing/pvp >.>

[cordelia]

So, with all this talk re: anecdotal evidence, I decided to test the change to JotW.

Solo'ing, I kill non elite mobs too fast, and don't run into mana problems. I judge, DS, then CS, and by then it's dead. Sometimes I don't have to CS. I don't remember using HoW, but I may have once or twice. The miniscule amount of spirit regen I get running from mob to mob offsets the mana usage. I DO slowly go OOM, but it takes ~20 mobs or so. This, of course, may not be true for a ret pally in greens who is just hitting outlands. Note, this is single mob farming, not multi-mob pulls.

I decided to go do a couple 5'mans. My 5man group was an arms warrior, hunter, a prot pally using BoSanc, holy pally w/kings, and myself using might/wis(on healer only). I would consistently be the first person OOM, usually after ~4-5 pulls. Once we moved from heroic BF to heroic ShatHalls, it got much worse. Obvioulsy, on 4+ mob pulls, I would use consecrate. I would go OOM every 2 pulls. The healer would be at 90% mana, the prot pally @80-100%, and the hunter would be ~half mana.

At this point, I asked the prot pally to bless me with Wisdom, and start using JoW every pull on my target, rather than relying on the prot to judge wisdom. I would still go OOM shortly after 3 pulls. On the boss fights, I was able to sustain rotations pretty well, but I used consecrate sparingly.

---------------------

Conclusions: It seems the JotW nerf does not hurt raiding dps very much. This is probably because of all the extra raid buffs provided, as well as the raid damage providing SA mana return. Solo'ing, the effect is inconclusive: It doesn't affect an over-geared single mob-farming situation, but I don't know about questing/leveling in a green geared situation. In parties, especially on AoE pulls where consecration is a necessary part of the rotation, the JotW debuff is severe. I don't see how a ret pally can keep up without drinking every other pull, slowing down the whole party.

[knaughty]

I don't see how a ret pally can keep up without drinking every other pull, slowing down the whole party.

Divine Plea at 71 is going to help rather a lot.