GC's announcement as to our nerfs

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Postby Widdox » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:20 am

Honorshammer wrote:Not sure if this is where this goes but here's my ancedotal evidence on the Seal nerfs from tanking all of BT last night.

I didn't notice them.


My ret paladin last night in BT was able to still go through his main rotation and be fine on mana. His DPS was down a bit, to where everyone else was. Its only the Hunters and boomkins that are ahead of everyone now. Remember this is lvl 70 and has no bearing on lvl 80 content. So its still to be seen.
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Postby Jensaarai » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:18 am

Worldie wrote:I don't feel betrayed, retri was a bit excessive atm. They nerfed something, BUT they boosted their substained DPS in other ways.

What i'm worried about is that everytime they nerf retri, who gets fucked is protection.

I mean, would it be THAT hard to make SoV/JoV have retardedly low coefficients with a 2hander?


Seriously. And Holy as well got fucked over again. Ret used Command and Blood/Martyr, stay away from the other shit Blizzard.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:20 am

frankly in BWL last night I kept near full mana using consecration and seal of blood.

I also beat a glaive rogue in dps on 2-3 bosses with top overall for the instance.
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Postby Lore » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:23 am

Jensaarai wrote:
Worldie wrote:I don't feel betrayed, retri was a bit excessive atm. They nerfed something, BUT they boosted their substained DPS in other ways.

What i'm worried about is that everytime they nerf retri, who gets fucked is protection.

I mean, would it be THAT hard to make SoV/JoV have retardedly low coefficients with a 2hander?


Seriously. And Holy as well got fucked over again. Ret used Command and Blood/Martyr, stay away from the other shit Blizzard.


Ret used Vengeance and Righteousness for a long time in Beta because they were doing more damage. They have to be careful not to bring that back.

They've already said they're willing to compensate holy and protection for the nerfs, they just want to make sure they're done tweaking ret first. The only seal nerf live at the moment is Command, so just have a little patience and try not to worry too hard.
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Postby Vires » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:32 am

Lore wrote:
Jensaarai wrote:
Worldie wrote:I don't feel betrayed, retri was a bit excessive atm. They nerfed something, BUT they boosted their substained DPS in other ways.

What i'm worried about is that everytime they nerf retri, who gets fucked is protection.

I mean, would it be THAT hard to make SoV/JoV have retardedly low coefficients with a 2hander?


Seriously. And Holy as well got fucked over again. Ret used Command and Blood/Martyr, stay away from the other shit Blizzard.


Ret used Vengeance and Righteousness for a long time in Beta because they were doing more damage. They have to be careful not to bring that back.

They've already said they're willing to compensate holy and protection for the nerfs, they just want to make sure they're done tweaking ret first. The only seal nerf live at the moment is Command, so just have a little patience and try not to worry too hard.


Would that mean they did not nerf judgement of wisdom yet? or has that part actually gone live. I know you said the only SEAL nerf, but i consider judgements to be part of seals in a weird "that doesnt make sense" sort of way lol

I ran ZA las tnight, and noticed my mana was a bit lower than previously, but still never had much issues. Still finished 3rd, and im geared pretty horribly for ret lol
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:43 am

Arrighty, went ahead and played with the latest battery of nerfs, here's a brief synopsis:

Our retribution paladin said in a raid environment, mana is still a non-issue and that he was able to sustain his rotations easily through all of nerfwell. He clocked in fairly high on the damage meters; given that he's a few steps behind the rest of the guild on gear, it seemed about right. (In other news, deep wounds needs a pve nerf. Badly. I hear they've actually put one in on the beta, but it sounds like that may not be sufficient based on last night's testing.)

I ran a few battlegrounds with ye olde Splugadin. Even with seal of command nerf, the damage level is still rediculous, the fundamental point of having an auto-win every 5 minutes is still going to get grumbling on a lot of fronts, and I think the lowest I remember my mana getting was about 4000/6800, even plowing from target to target (I eventually picked up a healer after saving a random druid from a rogue, so SA became a significant factor that probably threw off any sort of duration management). But even when I was soloing, it takes less than half a mana bar to rip through players in high resilience burning cooldowns and getting the opening shot. So battleground status: still diefic, though I was starting to hit problems with dual rogue 2v1's when they started cycling dismantles.

Tried to do some arenas too, but alas Illidan (and the Rampage battlegroup as a whole, as well as some other battlegroups I hear) was still completey shot as late as 1-2 am. While I got the battleground games in right before latency became a major player, the arena games were significantly hindered by lagwarping preventing me or my partner from getting into melee range. (That said, we still went 8-5 or so with an arms warrior / ret paladin 2v2. Would probably have been a bit better if we didn't run into problems with the old intercept -> hamstring maneuver failing because the stun would end before the hamstring could fire, but then the other teams would be better off too so who knows.) So I'm going to go with "inconclusive" on this one, though the fact that every team we played but one had one or more retribution paladins on it was amusing.

The hammer of wrath nerf will be fairly significant, but most of the other changes listed strike me as being overall break-evens. Less spike on the lucky crits, yes, but the non-crit cycles can still put people pretty far into the hole. The big thing will be that "dead" will be moving to 20% instead of 35%. Hopefully that will pull things close enough to balance at 70. The big concern is what's going to happen at 80; the game's completely screwed at 70 anyway, so I'm not reading too far into how rediculous ret paladins are for pvp now. And on that front, I'm not sure; my beta paladin is 70 or 71, and unlikely to move much in the next two weeks.

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Postby Fizzgig » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:47 am

Clearly you're lieing splug everyone has done numbers and ret paladins are bad, and will be bad.

Also thank you for some actual in game experience with the new seal/judge nerfs. what type of rotations was your ret paladin using? Using consecrate etc?
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:53 am

Hrm... I know he was using consecrate at least part time because we had three people run away from it on KJ thinking it was a meteor. I'm not sure what he did for a rotation, I just know his meter position was correct for his gear - perhaps even a bit impressively high on everything other than M'uru, and that after the raid he said his mana was great all night. (On M'uru he was sharing a humanoid side with our warrior, and they were clearing a 1-minute respawn set of adds in 20-30 seconds. It also took me until just now to figure out that said fury warrior wanted to move them to the south gate because the feral druid would be putting up mangle on that side.) In pvp, I used consecrate only when I expected a vanish, or right after vanish.

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Postby Obrimos » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:57 am

Vires wrote:
Lore wrote:
Jensaarai wrote:
Worldie wrote:I don't feel betrayed, retri was a bit excessive atm. They nerfed something, BUT they boosted their substained DPS in other ways.

What i'm worried about is that everytime they nerf retri, who gets fucked is protection.

I mean, would it be THAT hard to make SoV/JoV have retardedly low coefficients with a 2hander?


Seriously. And Holy as well got fucked over again. Ret used Command and Blood/Martyr, stay away from the other shit Blizzard.


Ret used Vengeance and Righteousness for a long time in Beta because they were doing more damage. They have to be careful not to bring that back.

They've already said they're willing to compensate holy and protection for the nerfs, they just want to make sure they're done tweaking ret first. The only seal nerf live at the moment is Command, so just have a little patience and try not to worry too hard.


Would that mean they did not nerf judgement of wisdom yet? or has that part actually gone live. I know you said the only SEAL nerf, but i consider judgements to be part of seals in a weird "that doesnt make sense" sort of way lol

I ran ZA las tnight, and noticed my mana was a bit lower than previously, but still never had much issues. Still finished 3rd, and im geared pretty horribly for ret lol


Judgements are seperate spells, and JoW was nerfed. The Seal wasn't, though.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:01 am

Splug wrote:Hrm... I know he was using consecrate at least part time because we had three people run away from it on KJ thinking it was a meteor. I'm not sure what he did for a rotation, I just know his meter position was correct for his gear - perhaps even a bit impressively high on everything other than M'uru, and that after the raid he said his mana was great all night. (On M'uru he was sharing a humanoid side with our warrior, and they were clearing a 1-minute respawn set of adds in 20-30 seconds. It also took me until just now to figure out that said fury warrior wanted to move them to the south gate because the feral druid would be putting up mangle on that side.) In pvp, I used consecrate only when I expected a vanish, or right after vanish.

-Splug


While I think having some anecdotal data is good to assuage people's The Sky Is Falling reactions, I think we do have to keep in mind that Splug's Retadin friend was playing with half the changes in place, and we have yet to see how the other talent and Seal/Judgement Light/Wisdom nerfs affect PvE performance.
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Postby Fizzgig » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:02 am

Splug wrote:Hrm... I know he was using consecrate at least part time because we had three people run away from it on KJ thinking it was a meteor. I'm not sure what he did for a rotation, I just know his meter position was correct for his gear - perhaps even a bit impressively high on everything other than M'uru, and that after the raid he said his mana was great all night. (On M'uru he was sharing a humanoid side with our warrior, and they were clearing a 1-minute respawn set of adds in 20-30 seconds. It also took me until just now to figure out that said fury warrior wanted to move them to the south gate because the feral druid would be putting up mangle on that side.) In pvp, I used consecrate only when I expected a vanish, or right after vanish.

-Splug


I haven't really looked into the numbers people are figuring on ret's mana sustaining abilities but I wonder if people are taking into account SA and the mana return from heals. I'd assume so but you never know
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:11 am

The numbers I've seen in this thread do not include SA in any form, significant or not. And yes- the changes to pve-state are only half the story. The half we've seen thus far still has the class in a very sound state, so we'll see where the rest of it goes. Though... seal/judgement of blood were taken off the nerf list I thought, and the other damage changes should be equal throughput / less burst, beyond reducing the hammer of wrath count. I'm not familiar with the judgement of wisdom change, though I heard there was one to put it more in line with VT - so I can't model that.

It's also worth noting that fights in nerfwell are extremely short now. One portal rotation is more than enough to burn Kalecgos and Sathrovarr down, KJ gets 0-1 darkness collapses per phase, Felmyst is a two-air-phase fight at most, etc. There are also some other classes that are extremely overperforming at the moment (the demented warrior tri-build and moonkin come to mind as forerunners in this department), which skews things even shorter.

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Postby fafhrd » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:26 am

WWS for last night doesn't seem to have uploaded correctly for some reason.

Thinking back to recount numbers though, our ret didn't seem noticeably worse than the previous week - i think he actually climbed to 3rd on brutallus instead of 4th the previous week (he was still #1 for healing both weeks). Still #1 for KJ dps (although that's partly because the hunter and rogue who are likely to outdps him were controlling dragons).

I have no idea how he was for mana, but didn't hear him complaining about anything. Someone said the JoW nerf went in, but I don't think it did - my hunter still had no mana issues as MM while JoW was up (went OOM in under a minute without it though...), and the windfury nerf wasn't live.
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Postby Widdox » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:58 am

Our ret pally used consecrate in his rotation, and commened that he was fine on mana. He noticed the lower damage, but it only dropped him down a bit. More toward the middle to high end of the pack. Instead of #1 or #2
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:03 pm

Widdox wrote:Our ret pally used consecrate in his rotation, and commened that he was fine on mana. He noticed the lower damage, but it only dropped him down a bit. More toward the middle to high end of the pack. Instead of #1 or #2


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