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GC's announcement as to our nerfs

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:20 pm

mavfin wrote:
Splug wrote:
Majiben wrote:It's a good point that rogues, warriors, and deathknights are self reliant in their resources while paladins and shammans have theirs vary widely with BoW, manaspring, replenishment, SA, JoW. The closest thing that rogues, warriors, and deathknights have is BoSanc which only applies to tanks. The original JotW would probably be fine without any other sources of mana for ret paladins.
In a raid environment, all or enough of those resources are likely to be provided. In a soloing environment, there's another resource, oft overlooked, which warriors and rogues are unable to refresh (and deathknights have very limited control over). ;)

-Splug


I can definitely say on my warrior that rage is a limited resource in DPS situations where I'm not taking damage. The only times I have more or less unlimited rage is when I'm taking damage. When doing *and* taking damage at the same time, rage is almost unlimited. Just DPSing a boss, not so much, unless it's Vael. :D


Well that's where the whole balancing act gets tricky. You are able to function in such an environment, even with no rage at all. You can build it, and the rate at which you do is partially dependent on how much damage you do, so there's some added scaling.

If completely OOM, a pally can divine plea for mana, but that's it. So with pallys you have to build in some sustainability because the penalty for being OOM is too severe. It doesn't seem like this is going to be a problem in raids, maybe some tweaking is needed there but the 15% could be enough.

Add burns to the equation like you get in PVP and it's a completely different ballgame. I was a little surprised after seeing the RoS phase 3 mechanic, that no class got an ability to burn rage/engergy to attempt to equal it out for wotlk.
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Postby Tev » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:30 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Add burns to the equation like you get in PVP and it's a completely different ballgame. I was a little surprised after seeing the RoS phase 3 mechanic, that no class got an ability to burn rage/engergy to attempt to equal it out for wotlk.


I still think that would be a nice effect to put on Crusader Strike. Maybe not a specific burn, but something like Lucifrons curse where it increases energy/rage/runic power costs of abilities by 25%, and mana costs by 50%.
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Postby majiben » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:35 pm

I would love to see ret get an ability (glyph or talent) that gives a free crusader strike when they get a crit with a judgement. This would work nicely to eliminate some of the mana concerns and the low benfit/cost ratio on CS.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:46 pm

Majiben wrote:I would love to see ret get an ability (glyph or talent) that gives a free crusader strike when they get a crit with a judgement. This would work nicely to eliminate some of the mana concerns and the low benfit/cost ratio on CS.


Or make judgement free, which has the benefit of giving you the mana to do something else. I don't like having to waste a glyph slot on something like that though.
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Postby cordelia » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:55 pm

Lore wrote:
cordelia wrote:I don't see how you think the new system is fairly correct given my numbers. Going oom in 2 minutes is NOT perpetual. Remember, this going OOM in 2 minutes includes NOTHING besides CS/DS/Judge.


I don't think the new system is fairly correct, given your numbers.

It's the latter half of that statement I take issue with, particularly since my own numbers as well as several other posters' numbers disagree with yours.


Again, it comes down to assumptions. GC says specifically in that quote that without Divine Plea, ret pallies should be able to maintain an indefinite Seal/Judge/CS/DS rotation. She also seems to imply this should hold true for PvP.

That indicates to me, that the developers' goal is to have a ret paladin in a NON-RAID BUFFED environment, without using divine plea, have outgoing mana spent on Seal/Judge/CS/DS equivalent to incoming mana due to replenishment and JotW. This may or may not include JoW.

My math showed that this goal is not met by the current coefficients, and therefore, a ret pally would go OOM in 2 minutes (w/o JoW).

These numbers have nothing to do with what is or is not sustainable in a raid environment. I am simply showing that GC's stated goal doesn't seem to match up with the numbers, and a 20-21% coefficient on JotW would be better.

Let's use Ziggy's numbers instead of my own:

ziggyunderslashone wrote:Seal of Blood = (0.14*4114*0.9)/120 = 4.32
Judgement of Justice = (0.05*4114*0.9)/8.5 = 21.78
Divine Storm = (0.12*4114*0.9)/10.6 = 41.92
Crusader Strike = (0.08*4114*0.9)/6.125 = 48.36

= 116.38 mana out per second


Non-raid buffed, a human paladin has ~80 int, so:

Replenishment = 0.0025*(4114+80*15) = 13.285
JotW = (0.15*4114)/8.5 = 72.6

= 85.89 mana in per second


Bold numbers are adjustments by me to his original equations, using 80 rather than 225 mana.

That means that a paladin has a mana shortage of
30.5 mana per second.

[4114 + 80*15]/30.5 = 174 seconds until OOM.

That's basically 3 minutes. My calculations shifted slightly due to prioritizing judgement over CS and DS, and also due to better numbers.

This scenario clearly is not "indefinite" as GC implies in her quoted post.

Furthermore, think about what this MEANS for PvP. Once a ret pally is OOM, you can ignore him. He cannot sustain a CS/DS/Judgement rotation while OOM. The best he can do is leave out CS, using only Judgement and DS. Not to mention that if he goes OOM, and the seal is purged, or falls off, he CANNOT judge. SotM takes 518 mana to cast, Judgement, another 185 mana, requiring 700+ mana before the ret pally can start another dps rotation. How long does it take a ret pally to gain 700 mana without JotW or replenishment? Absolutely forever. There only recourse is the 1 min CD Divine Plea. This utterly cripples Rets. Any ret pally who doesn't watch their mana pool and seal carefully can end up oom, and in deep trouble. This scenario can never occur with a warrior/rogue. They will generate rage/energy, regardless. You cannot "incapacitate" them, so to speak.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:31 pm

Based on his comments, I took the mana nerf to have been specifically aimed at PVP, with the welcomed side effect of not being able to spam skills in PVE.

Again, I think in the context of burns and how vulnerable ret will be to them, it's a problem.
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Postby Bobness » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:24 am

cordelia wrote:
Lore wrote:
cordelia wrote:I don't see how you think the new system is fairly correct given my numbers. Going oom in 2 minutes is NOT perpetual. Remember, this going OOM in 2 minutes includes NOTHING besides CS/DS/Judge.


I don't think the new system is fairly correct, given your numbers.

It's the latter half of that statement I take issue with, particularly since my own numbers as well as several other posters' numbers disagree with yours.


Again, it comes down to assumptions. GC says specifically in that quote that without Divine Plea, ret pallies should be able to maintain an indefinite Seal/Judge/CS/DS rotation. She also seems to imply this should hold true for PvP.

That indicates to me, that the developers' goal is to have a ret paladin in a NON-RAID BUFFED environment, without using divine plea, have outgoing mana spent on Seal/Judge/CS/DS equivalent to incoming mana due to replenishment and JotW. This may or may not include JoW.

My math showed that this goal is not met by the current coefficients, and therefore, a ret pally would go OOM in 2 minutes (w/o JoW).

These numbers have nothing to do with what is or is not sustainable in a raid environment. I am simply showing that GC's stated goal doesn't seem to match up with the numbers, and a 20-21% coefficient on JotW would be better.

Let's use Ziggy's numbers instead of my own:

ziggyunderslashone wrote:Seal of Blood = (0.14*4114*0.9)/120 = 4.32
Judgement of Justice = (0.05*4114*0.9)/8.5 = 21.78
Divine Storm = (0.12*4114*0.9)/10.6 = 41.92
Crusader Strike = (0.08*4114*0.9)/6.125 = 48.36

= 116.38 mana out per second


Non-raid buffed, a human paladin has ~80 int, so:

Replenishment = 0.0025*(4114+80*15) = 13.285
JotW = (0.15*4114)/8.5 = 72.6

= 85.89 mana in per second


Bold numbers are adjustments by me to his original equations, using 80 rather than 225 mana.

That means that a paladin has a mana shortage of
30.5 mana per second.

[4114 + 80*15]/30.5 = 174 seconds until OOM.

That's basically 3 minutes. My calculations shifted slightly due to prioritizing judgement over CS and DS, and also due to better numbers.

This scenario clearly is not "indefinite" as GC implies in her quoted post.

Furthermore, think about what this MEANS for PvP. Once a ret pally is OOM, you can ignore him. He cannot sustain a CS/DS/Judgement rotation while OOM. The best he can do is leave out CS, using only Judgement and DS. Not to mention that if he goes OOM, and the seal is purged, or falls off, he CANNOT judge. SotM takes 518 mana to cast, Judgement, another 185 mana, requiring 700+ mana before the ret pally can start another dps rotation. How long does it take a ret pally to gain 700 mana without JotW or replenishment? Absolutely forever. There only recourse is the 1 min CD Divine Plea. This utterly cripples Rets. Any ret pally who doesn't watch their mana pool and seal carefully can end up oom, and in deep trouble. This scenario can never occur with a warrior/rogue. They will generate rage/energy, regardless. You cannot "incapacitate" them, so to speak.


Hmm & PVP produces another problem....

In old World PVP a ret Paladin was most likely after 30 secs OOM, also healing wasn't an issue because Healing was a none issue FOL was worth one tick of a bandage.

In the new "Pre-Nerf" world a Ret Paladin had pretty much everything

High Burst
Infinate Mana
High Healing Potential.

Ok so burst has gone.... Mana needs managing & now according to the assumption above... you can maintain a basic rotation but can't afford to heal (other than DS)

Combine mana burns & Ret Paladins are looking pretty weak in PVP.

In the past I only ever worried about Ret Paladins with mana who BOFed themselves...same will hold true in the future.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:56 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Legionp wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Manatide = (34*1.25)/2 = 21.25


I thought water totems were not raid wide atm. So chances are you won't be getting this one, unless I'm mistaken.


Mana Spring is raidwide, Mana Tide is not.

Ah of course, I've confused those two for over a year now. I generally refer to them both as "The Mana One". Spring is the one modelled there though. Label error.
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Postby Zironic » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:21 am

Ah of course, I've confused those two for over a year now. I generally refer to them both as "The Mana One". Spring is the one modelled there though. Label error.


Just try to think that "Tide" means big and "spring" means small.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:29 am

Dantriges wrote:
mirkodeluxe wrote:I dont know about you people, but lately I have got the feeling that a lot of players in the community rolled protection pala because it was superior in some way and now that we have lost some of our edge and the cold wind of tank equality or even inferiority is blowing they are looking to leave the class..


I don´t think that there were many players going into protection spec as main char, because they thought it was superior. Quite a few holys were probably fed up with healing and changed into the other spec that was accepted somehow. I saw quite a lot of twink protection paladins but no one changing them into mains.

A few are changing into protection as it is now viable in their eyes. :roll: Good that no one was telling the boss that my class can´t tank, he never realizd that. :lol:

Why people want to quit now? They had high hopes for the addon, fed by the announcements that all classes are MTs in the next expansion. Now we get nerfs because of a tree we don´t put much points into. The other classes stuff seem to be shinier and people are getting tired of Blizzards strange balancing attempts lately.

At least I am slowly getting tired. I fought tooth and nail most of BC for acceptance of my class as a tanking class and I don´t want to anymore. I am probably not the only one who is tired of that and I am not sure if the whole stuff will be going on for the whole of WotLk


Well. I do understand the disappointment, I feel it too when the nerfbat hits us. But please.. We have nowhere near the problems we had pre 2.3, we still have decent health, good tps and even better abilities.
This is still pregame, we are not even in wrath yet. So hold your horses for a bit and chill. We have 2 weeks til launch, then a good month to test everything and give feedback to blizzard. If they arent lying about viability of all classes/specs then it will be sorted out.

If they are.. then it wont matter, will it?

But im not trying to kill all discussions, I like the number crunching and theorycrafting. But I expect a more constructive tone from the best of the brightest in the tankadin community, I mean some of you make me wonder if Im stupid for having so much fun with tanking post 3.0, and I know Im not.
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Postby Nemuria » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:34 am

A several class are coming to us and talking about "mana management". They say since you got a mana bar you have to manage our mana pool. And this mana needs to go oom along the fight.

I'd say: False
Healers and casters usually go with 9K-12K mana. Intell also contribute to critical spell, which is actually mana sparing. For Holy it contributes to spell power. It is their power source and also a constraint. It gets even in the balance.

Now Protect/Ret won't get Intellect from gear and it doesn't give any additional power than the ability to cast spell. Our primary power source is Strength/AP. If we have to manage mana, then give us more power from Intellect. Juste give us a Mage bar!

For me that's why the class is always struggling to get balanced, beside Holy. The design is flawed since the start. While Blizzard was about to find the solution, they have to fallback due to public reaction.

Some are already thinking about gemming, enchanting and offesetting with Intellect gear.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:38 am

Nemuria wrote:Some are already thinking about gemming, enchanting and offesetting with Intellect gear.

No ones going to go that far, but you are right. The spec was built around mana being a non issue (melee is an issue in and of itself, which is why all ranged classes get mana management and all melee but retri have other issues, in theory proximity based) and now that it is, there is very slim support for the model.

Out of interest, does the "competative dps" seem to be designed around non use of consecrate, partial use or full use? Whatever end of the scale they decide upon, rets relative position on dps tables will be entirely dependant on the presence of raid damage. That seems more difficult to balance than using every ability asap.
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Postby Bobness » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:52 am

I believe the assumption was

Seal CS/DS/Judge, was the rotation GC referred to.

There was also specific mention of consecration not being part of the rotation.


The sufficient mana model is being built around these three cooldowns...so draw your own conclusion.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:23 am

If they changed Divine Storm to 8s, and Seal of Mana to a % gain based on AP per swing (say 5% per swing given naxx retribution level AP), then you'd gain 20% mana back if there are 4 mobs every 8 seconds.

Just throwing that out there. I was grinding and switching to Seal of Wisdom some and noticed the returns are pretty substantial from Divine Storm. The only real problem is seal damage is a huge portion of our DPS and returns are slow to come in a single mob situation (not to mention the chance not to proc the seal).
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:27 am

Elsie wrote:If they changed Divine Storm to 8s, and Seal of Mana to a % gain based on AP per swing (say 5% per swing given naxx retribution level AP), then you'd gain 20% mana back if there are 4 mobs every 8 seconds.

Just throwing that out there. I was grinding and switching to Seal of Wisdom some and noticed the returns are pretty substantial from Divine Storm. The only real problem is seal damage is a huge portion of our DPS and returns are slow to come in a single mob situation (not to mention the chance not to proc the seal).
It's a similar situation to HotR in soloing. HotR with SoL is like omg
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