GC's announcement as to our nerfs

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Postby Erendis » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:39 pm

Karock wrote:
Worldie wrote:I don't feel betrayed, retri was a bit excessive atm. They nerfed something, BUT they boosted their substained DPS in other ways.

What i'm worried about is that everytime they nerf retri, who gets fucked is protection.

I mean, would it be THAT hard to make SoV/JoV have retardedly low coefficients with a 2hander?


In my anecdotal experience retribution paladin have maybe a little over arms warrior's sustained dps in equal gear (we burst for a bit more though, sadly, not that much more). Typically what happens for us is the warrior leads till ~35% and then the ret paladin starts to pull ahead. Even GC admits in his post that also hunters, warriors and mages were being compared to as the dps standard.

Hunters are being nerfed (they are apparently doing WAY more damage than anyone else currently).

Mages (specifically arcane) doing unreasonable damage are fine, L2P. <--Paraphrased Ghostcrawler.

Fury is being buffed to arms dps because they just "weren't happy" with the nerfs to arms warriors.

Uh... yeah.

Anyways so far for this expansion I have two nice and shiney promises to keep me going! =D

1) If retribution is being almost completely excluded like the majority of raids in TBC they'll "fix" it!

2) Bosses will just have to not mana drain or silence the tank! (fear is fine, L2P warrior or bring a shaman)


Roll human? :P

But seriously, I see these changes being a knee jerk reaction on the part of Blizzard. It puts alot of doubt on their testing process if they didn't see the problems before now.

I also see the issue with these changes affecting Hunters and Enhance Shammies too much. Both being casters with small mana pools the wisdom change is huge. Currently, if I have JoW wisdom on a boss my DPS is ~1900. Without JoW it is about 1400 b/c of the excessive amount of time spent in Viper.

Combine this with the PVE nerf to viper planned as well as the fact that Windfury totem will no longer grant ranged haste this worries me.

I know hunter (esp BM) DPS is way better now but and a couple of those changes were needed. but all of them?

Anyways, my point is that I think Blizzard is being to narrow in their changes. In that they are not looking at the big picture when it comes to class changes. Each class does not work on its own for PvE. Synergy is a big part of this game for raiding. Nerfing one class with hurt others most of the time.

Honestly, I think the QQ about PvP is mostly to blame for these sorts of changes. Most of the complaints that I have heard regarding ret is simply their burst in PvP. I don't see these changes as being a burst fix as much as a complete class nerf.

This sort of behavior from Blizzard worries me from a design standpoint.
Last edited by Erendis on Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GC's announcement as to our nerfs

Postby Tahl » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:56 pm

Ghostcrawler wrote:
While we don't want you to go OOM in a few seconds, we don't want you to ignore the mana bar either. Mana is not rage -- warriors can't typically start a battle with a full bar.



I really wish sometimes I could trade our mana bar for a rage bar. The reason always why we can't continue dps/tanking endlessly is that ours starts full and their starts empty. So the tradeoff for having an advantage for the first 10-20 seconds of the fight (how long it takes to blow through a full mana bar) is having to hold back for the remaining 6-7 minutes due to lack of mana?

Ghostcrawler wrote:2) Judgement of Wisdom: mana gained reduced to 1% of maximum mana and proc frequency cut by 50%. This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch when the mana provided between the two really needs to be close in order for the decision between Shadow priest and Retribution paladin to be a real one.


This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch.. if it was judged by ret. What about prot? It was in no way OP for us but instead was very useful for keeping up our basic dps rotation in situations where we weren't taking huge damage. Again we get the shaft due to ret balancing.

Ghostcrawler wrote:We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).


You're prepared to act if it hurts prot's threat.. how could it not? Why be prepared to act later, when you could already have given us compensation through reasonable buffs to other abilities in the same patch? Must we wait until our threat, already the lowest of the tanks, becomes an issue that prevents us from raiding? You always say how easy it is to tweak a few numbers here and there.. so why the "wait and see"?

This change was entirely directed at balancing ret, and some action was needed there, but giving prot and holy a nod and saying "yeah, we nerfed you indirectly and it wasn't our intention.. sorry. Maybe we'll fix it someday." isn't very reassuring.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:58 pm

yknow... another thing is our burst was via our strikes. Almost every other class has a strong set of DPS CDs.


An inherent ret problem is most their CDs overlap each other. This is the hand spells.
Ideally, we have 3 hand spells, avenging wrath, divine shield. Realistically we can only use 3 of those, and 1 is damage. This doesn't coincide with other dps, really, where you can have upward of 5 dps CDs. We also don't have situational strikes - there's no penalty or benefit to using anything offensive like most classes - our decisions come on where to use the defensive abilities (hands, blessings). Compare this to energy moves (eg eviscerate vs rupture) and rage (eg cleave vs slam).

In the above I use CD meaning 1+ minute.
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Postby Invisusira » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:19 pm

wow, GC's thread on the live forums filled up quick.
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Postby Passionario » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:35 pm

Time to switch to DK, I guess... and possibly level a warrior, just in case.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:38 pm

Passionario wrote:Time to switch to DK, I guess... and possibly level a warrior, just in case.

The game will change more in the first month of wotlk than 3.0-wotlk. Significantly more.

But yeah my rogue will be my raid character come wotlk if some issues aren't addressed. Tired of mediocrity =)
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Postby Jtree » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:46 pm

Jasari wrote:
stevebeiser wrote:My confusion lies in that our threat was already behind at 80, meaning to balance it we'd be expecting buffs, if nothing else. And then these very significant nerfs come into play. Even when they say they "might" compensate for *these* nerfs - does that mean our previous position of last-place-tps was already acceptable at that point?


I'll bet they weren't even really looking at TPS comparisons between tanks yet. It seems they're more concerned with balancing DPS output between DPS classes right now. Kind of like when we were behind in mitigation and it took them a while to actually do serious mitigation balancing. Eventually they got around to it, and did a pretty good job. Once they're pleased with DPS class balance, I'm sure they'll take a closer look at tank threat output. Until they say something along the lines of "we're happy with tank threat balance" I'm gong to assume they haven't addressed it yet.


This. Retribution OP damage gets the focus, because it's happening right now on live servers. Potential threat issues in level 80 raid content can stay on the back burner for a while yet. At least until Christmas, right?
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Postby Elsie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:06 pm

Jtree wrote:
Jasari wrote:
stevebeiser wrote:My confusion lies in that our threat was already behind at 80, meaning to balance it we'd be expecting buffs, if nothing else. And then these very significant nerfs come into play. Even when they say they "might" compensate for *these* nerfs - does that mean our previous position of last-place-tps was already acceptable at that point?


I'll bet they weren't even really looking at TPS comparisons between tanks yet. It seems they're more concerned with balancing DPS output between DPS classes right now. Kind of like when we were behind in mitigation and it took them a while to actually do serious mitigation balancing. Eventually they got around to it, and did a pretty good job. Once they're pleased with DPS class balance, I'm sure they'll take a closer look at tank threat output. Until they say something along the lines of "we're happy with tank threat balance" I'm gong to assume they haven't addressed it yet.


This. Retribution OP damage gets the focus, because it's happening right now on live servers. Potential threat issues in level 80 raid content can stay on the back burner for a while yet. At least until Christmas, right?

Except ret burst is less than mage burst and harder to do. Also less than rogue burst. Also less than moonkin burst. With less viable overall utility.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:15 pm

Wow, these changes hit Prot pretty hard.

I understand them wanting to lower Ret a bit but ouch...
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:20 pm

Elsie wrote:
Jtree wrote:
Jasari wrote:
stevebeiser wrote:My confusion lies in that our threat was already behind at 80, meaning to balance it we'd be expecting buffs, if nothing else. And then these very significant nerfs come into play. Even when they say they "might" compensate for *these* nerfs - does that mean our previous position of last-place-tps was already acceptable at that point?


I'll bet they weren't even really looking at TPS comparisons between tanks yet. It seems they're more concerned with balancing DPS output between DPS classes right now. Kind of like when we were behind in mitigation and it took them a while to actually do serious mitigation balancing. Eventually they got around to it, and did a pretty good job. Once they're pleased with DPS class balance, I'm sure they'll take a closer look at tank threat output. Until they say something along the lines of "we're happy with tank threat balance" I'm gong to assume they haven't addressed it yet.


This. Retribution OP damage gets the focus, because it's happening right now on live servers. Potential threat issues in level 80 raid content can stay on the back burner for a while yet. At least until Christmas, right?

Except ret burst is less than mage burst and harder to do. Also less than rogue burst. Also less than moonkin burst. With less viable overall utility.


But ret has bubble! And heals(they don't have the mana for now)! And cleanse/hands(which they have no mana for now)! Why would they need burst - there are so many other things ret can do!

Comes down to the old bubble again.
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Postby Grimmal » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:32 pm

All you people talking about rerolling better be careful, you might get called FotM Paladins... <sarcasm>

Personally it's looking like my Hunter or Rogue is taking over the spot for me. Though I'm having a blast leveling my Fury Warrior who I plan to make Prot. Who knows what I'll decide in the end, but my Paladin atm just isn't going to get the same love it used to. She'll hit 80, but she won't be my first to do so for sure.

This. Retribution OP damage gets the focus, because it's happening right now on live servers. Potential threat issues in level 80 raid content can stay on the back burner for a while yet. At least until Christmas, right?


Honestly if people aren't raiding by the end of the second week, I'll be surprised. If it takes until Christmas I'd be absolutely floored.

This is getting changed not because it is on live, but because to many people cried. Blizzard might deny it, but to many other classes were putting out similar sustained and similar burst. The only thing that I could honestly viewed as justified is their opinion on JotW as they don't want it being a rage bar that starts full apparently. The rest, utter crap to soothe the masses.

I mean I just specced my Rogue to Mutilate for the first time and have no clue what I'm doing. I'm sure my spec is lacking and my gear for sure is. Yet I can open up with enough burst half the time to destroy anything I'm attacking. I haven't tried to PvP with her yet (past a few duels) so I'm not sure how that will work, but so far in PvE she is a beast and easily is doing comparable burst to my Ret Paladin. Yet for some reason, she is sitting pretty and my Paladin isn't...
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:54 pm

Worldie wrote:
Jasari wrote:No surprises. I'd expect a few prot pally threat buffs in the near future, since he specifically said they might be needed.

Actually, instead of threat buffs, they have to do some decent DPS buff if they want me to not change character in WotLK.

Well, not like anyone cares of *me*, but i'd love to have a reason to keep playing my paladin other than the craptons of achievements :\

Finally. Good to see the evangelism dieing and reality encroaching back into these forums.

The prot paladin spec is a problem looking for a solution right now.
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Postby Sharlos » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:55 pm

Sigh...


Have they considered giving vengeance a different coefficient for 1/2 handed weapons and making crusader strike/divine storm not proc seals instead of nerfing the ability all paladins use into the ground. I wouldn't be surprised if seals do less damage @ 80 than they did pre 3.0.
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Postby Katamai » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:59 pm

5) Art of War: Increased damage bonus to Judgements, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. I'll report back on the exact numbers here when we've settled on them.


Personally i find this APPALLING...

They don't even have the damn numbers yet they nerfed the whole class?

How could they have even nerfed ret and "buffed" AoW to compensate for dmg lost through reduced burst when they don't even have the numbers done? What kind of a joke is that?
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Postby Dianora » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:10 pm

Katamai wrote:
5) Art of War: Increased damage bonus to Judgements, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. I'll report back on the exact numbers here when we've settled on them.


Personally i find this APPALLING...

They don't even have the damn numbers yet they nerfed the whole class?

How could they have even nerfed ret and "buffed" AoW to compensate for dmg lost through reduced burst when they don't even have the numbers done? What kind of a joke is that?


I have full faith in the intent and ability of Blizzard screwing us over. I've yet to be wrong.
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