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GC's announcement as to our nerfs

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby crabcrouton » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:13 am

Fridmarr wrote:Out of curiosity, are you talking about live or beta? I don't think ret's DPS will scale as well as other classes and so we should be a bit high right now at 70. Remember, ret won't get any new DPS skills, and unless I'm mistaken, ret doesn't even get a new rank of anything that ups the baseline.

Yes, I'm talking about the beta at 80. I was only about 2% below the 6th dps, the Mage, and 8% below the raid's 1st, a Hunter. Like I said, it's not a crippling matter at all, I'm just upset that the mana limitation translates also into a hybrid limitation.

@Fafhrd Class-wise it was:
In MC it was Warlocks + every hybrid.
In BWL it was every hybrid.
In AQ it was Feral druids.
In Naxx it was Oomkins.
I kinda lost track around T4 and T5 but suffice it to say, Warriors, Druids and Hunters were never at the 9th spot for dps in this bracket.
We all know who's was finally given a slot in 2.3 (in some guilds) and coincidentally who was also 9th on dps.

Yes I was there for all of it. Yes I heard the whining from those classes/specs specifically. Yes, the entire time Ret wasn't even given a raid slot, I'm not sure where to even put them on the chart back then.

Don't try to sell Warriors, Rogues and Hunters short. When raids had 3-5 Rogues/Hunters/Warriors back in the day, it was also pretty easy to see a large sample size of "skill" and "class".

Sure they were never consistently raid 1sts, I never said that. But don't yank my chain and sell a fishliver oil story about how they felt the sting of bottom dps consistently. They were never bottom. That's just not how my experience played out. The very last spec in the game to be given a viable raid spot is kinda, by definition, bottom rung.
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Postby Bobness » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:18 am

Knaughty wrote:(2) Ret is by far the hardest spec to balance. They double-dip via AP -> SP conversions. They scale in all sorts of weird ways. They have access to every DPS ability, including the ones used by prot and holy. (Well, not hammer/holy-shock, but you get the point


Ret should be extremely easy to balance... the rotation is easy... your going to DS,CS,Judge (& Seal Proc somewhere in there)

If they can't balance that what hope is there ?
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Postby Noradin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:43 am

Bobness wrote:
Knaughty wrote:(2) Ret is by far the hardest spec to balance. They double-dip via AP -> SP conversions. They scale in all sorts of weird ways. They have access to every DPS ability, including the ones used by prot and holy. (Well, not hammer/holy-shock, but you get the point


Ret should be extremely easy to balance... the rotation is easy... your going to DS,CS,Judge (& Seal Proc somewhere in there)

If they can't balance that what hope is there ?


The problem with ret is that they deal all their damage with abilities on (relatively) long CDs. Yes 10sec is long for a rotation, other classes have no CD on their main damage abilities. They even use slow weapons to melee.
Long CDs means they have to do a lot of damage per hit to get competitive DPS. Thats why they get bursty and hard to balance for PvP and PvE at once.

They should give them more abilities or shorten the CDs oth those they have (like, cutting the CDs, manacosts and damage of crusaderstrike and Divine storm by halve). Then they could give them an other way to win in PvP besides burst and the whole deal woud be a lot more easy to balance.

Seperating the abilities used for Ret, Prot and Holy more would help, too.
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Postby Levantine » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:47 am

That and Ret Paladins scale in a very unique way with Sheath of Light. No other class has that capability.

P.S. Anyone who brings up the Enhance Shaman talent is stupid, because Shaman spells don't scale with AP and SP at once, it's either AP or SP, not both like most Paladin spells do.
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Postby Mica » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:01 am

It is much easier to balance Ret first. Ret should not be a "top 3" DPS spec. Ret is one of the most powerful buffing specs in game, maybe the most powerful @ 80. There is supposed to be a small tradeoff in exchange for being radically OP for group synergy. Right now... Ret is most power buffing class and highest melee DPS and radically OP in PvP.

Ret should be down with elemental, balance, shadow, etc, maybe 10% behind the rogues.


If we're talking about undead instances I think Ret should definitely qualify as being in the top 3 dps for a 10 man raid and in the top 5 dps for a 25 man raid. A large portion of a paladins damage is designed around killing undead and demons, if they balance our dps around fighting undead and demon mobs its quite simply no fair.

A similar example would be trying to balance DK's dps against a mechanical mob that's immune to diseases. Anytime they fight a mob that isn't mechanical they'd be way overpowered. The only difference here is that any time a paladin doesn't fight an undead/demon they'll be way underpowered.
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Postby Barathorn » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:17 am

It appears to me there are very different schools of thought out there. There are those players who are end game raiders and who have seen that Retribution was FAR too powerful in end game, there are those of us who are happy doing lesser content where Retribution was FAR too powerful and I dare say there are those of us who do PVP where Retribution was FAR too powerful.

It needed nerfing, we all knew that, and we knew it would only be a matter of time. As a side effect there may be some balancing needed for prot and holy specs. I am ok with that, I understand to get the entire class balanced you need to iron out all the issues with the overpowered spec. My only concern is that its awfully late in the day to be making changes of this magnitude. We all knew a nerf was coming, stop complaining. Druids had to put up with it at the start of TBC, it just so happens they got us wrong [again] this time round.

I will continue to tank as a Paladin no matter what, because I enjoy playing my class, irrespective of how balanced we are against other classes. While this isn't ideal, its my own opinion and the way I use to not take the game as seriously as some of you are currently.

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Postby Bobness » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:45 am

Barathorn wrote:It appears to me there are very different schools of thought out there. There are those players who are end game raiders and who have seen that Retribution was FAR too powerful in end game, there are those of us who are happy doing lesser content where Retribution was FAR too powerful and I dare say there are those of us who do PVP where Retribution was FAR too powerful.

It needed nerfing, we all knew that, and we knew it would only be a matter of time. As a side effect there may be some balancing needed for prot and holy specs. I am ok with that, I understand to get the entire class balanced you need to iron out all the issues with the overpowered spec. My only concern is that its awfully late in the day to be making changes of this magnitude. We all knew a nerf was coming, stop complaining. Druids had to put up with it at the start of TBC, it just so happens they got us wrong [again] this time round.

I will continue to tank as a Paladin no matter what, because I enjoy playing my class, irrespective of how balanced we are against other classes. While this isn't ideal, its my own opinion and the way I use to not take the game as seriously as some of you are currently.

Barathorn




A fine sentiment Barathon & as a sentiment I whole Heartedly agree.

However... a wait & see attitude wouldn't have seen us get a 10% stamina increase in TBC,
nor would it have seen us receive a 3% DR from SotT after numerous feedback threads.

Prot Paladins exploited a niche in the market during TBC, that niche is much reduced,indeed being on Par is the new mantra.

As such it's not unreasonable to expect that DPS translates to TPS on the same scale in WOTLK for all Tanking classes, being behind in the beginning will hurt us a damn sight more than being equal.

If they can Hotfix Ret they should sure as shit should fix prot & holy in the same way, ofc it's only a game...but I want to walk into WOTLK on an equal footing,it's what i was told to expect & what i expect to happen.
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Postby Macha » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:59 am

Barathorn wrote:It appears to me there are very different schools of thought out there. There are those players who are end game raiders and who have seen that Retribution was FAR too powerful in end game, there are those of us who are happy doing lesser content where Retribution was FAR too powerful and I dare say there are those of us who do PVP where Retribution was FAR too powerful.


And there are these who actually played the beta, who noticed that Retribution was already weak in PVE, already showing in naxx, and getting worse as content went on. Remember: Naxx is an undead instance. And there, Retribution was far from being a top DPS.

But I guess people just cannot understand that, because they never used the beta and thus don't really know how things stand.

While this isn't ideal, its my own opinion and the way I use to not take the game as seriously as some of you are currently.


The biggest nerds are these who need to prove themselves that others are worse than them by pretending that other people "take it too seriously".


I was only about 2% below the 6th dps, the Mage, and 8% below the raid's 1st, a Hunter. Like I said, it's not a crippling matter at all


In other words: Before the nerfs, you were already further away from the highest DPS than the 5% GC mentioned.
The nerfs will cut your DPS by another 15-20%. This has already been tested: Consecration is not useable on CD anymore, HoW and Exorcism cannot be used at all unless one wants to get OOM. That on top of the seal nerfs does nerf Ret into the ground as far as DPS goes.

Heck, your numbers show that Ret never was "OP" in PVE at 80 to begin with. If your numbers were what all raids were showing, Ret would have been exactly fine - and that's not even considering that Naxx is an undead instance, and that Ret drops steeply in the instances beyond that already.
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:01 am

Bobness wrote:If they can Hotfix Ret


They don't hotfix ret, they just hotnerf them.
They just have to wait for the next Xpack to get balanced - again -.
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Postby elfjorc » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:03 am

And there are these who actually played the beta, who noticed that Retribution was already weak in PVE, already showing in naxx, and getting worse as content went on. Remember: Naxx is an undead instance. And there, Retribution was far from being a top DPS.

But I guess people just cannot understand that, because they never used the beta and thus don't really know how things stand.


Some of the dps classes and the numbers they were getting was majorly out of league. Hunters are getting a big PvE tone down with possibly more to come, just as an example. Other classes are also getting their stuff adjusted to be more in line, so seriously, until an actual dps benchmark of what is good and what isn't is established that doesn't range widely from 3k to 5k dps among all the classes, wait before complaining.
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Postby Macha » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:05 am

Fury DPS is being buffed, and was already over 4k in Naxx.

Ret was below 4k, and is getting nerfed hard.

Play the beta. Then complain about others complaining, because currently, you really don't know what you are talking about.
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Postby elfjorc » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:13 am

Macha wrote:Fury DPS is being buffed, and was already over 4k in Naxx.

Ret was below 4k, and is getting nerfed hard.

Play the beta. Then complain about others complaining, because currently, you really don't know what you are talking about.


So Hunters aren't getting toned down? Yeah they still are.

Fury DPS was being buffed because Titan's Grip was a lackluster talent. It's the same with every class, they have to get the class working right before they balance it with respect to numbers and they've said that a bazillion times. There's plenty of time for classes to both be brought down and brought up before we start raiding at 80, and Blizzard are right now by their own words considering what to do with some of those other classes, and they will be making changes now, in the next month, in the weeks after LK comes out, and in the first few weeks of Naxx raiding to balance classes either up or down, so there's nothing about "good dps" or "bad dps" finalised yet.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:21 am

Macha wrote:Fury DPS is being buffed, and was already over 4k in Naxx.

Ret was below 4k, and is getting nerfed hard.

Play the beta. Then complain about others complaining, because currently, you really don't know what you are talking about.

What beta are you playing?
crabcrouton wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Out of curiosity, are you talking about live or beta? I don't think ret's DPS will scale as well as other classes and so we should be a bit high right now at 70. Remember, ret won't get any new DPS skills, and unless I'm mistaken, ret doesn't even get a new rank of anything that ups the baseline.

Yes, I'm talking about the beta at 80. I was only about 2% below the 6th dps, the Mage, and 8% below the raid's 1st, a Hunter.

You never post numbers, data, parses, recount or actual game-play details.

You (Macha + Baghead) just say "ret is busted and they nerfed it more". I call bullshit. I'm not raiding in beta, but I don't believe you are either, and you're not listening to the people that are.

Publicly stated design goal is to have ret be 5% or so behind pure DPS, as the payback for huge raid utility. I mean.. they ad 3% crit, 2% damage, 3% haste and are only 2-8% behind pure DPS with those buffs.

Fridmarr gives numbers. 2% behind a mage, 8% behind a hunter (and hunters are supposedly a little high right now).

Seems like they're getting pretty close to their 5-10% goal, eh?
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:40 am

Knaughty wrote:Publicly stated design goal is to have ret be 5% or so behind pure DPS, as the payback for huge raid utility. I mean.. they ad 3% crit, 2% damage, 3% haste and are only 2-8% behind pure DPS with those buffs.

Fridmarr gives numbers. 2% behind a mage, 8% behind a hunter (and hunters are supposedly a little high right now).

Seems like they're getting pretty close to their 5-10% goal, eh?


I rotfl.
It's not like warriors bring AP, armor reduction and things like that.
What class doesn't buff the other nowadays ?
Saying ret should be 5% behind because of the utility means paladin should have 5% less health and armor because they bring in *unic* buff: sanctuary.

Now, I though this was a protection paladin forum.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:43 am

I think I'm the only paladin here that didn't spec ret since I looted Spellpower to Bracers from those stupid ogres by June.
It's all one big blurry mess right now, 1 gold says something will explode as Wrath releases. Hopefully not my head.
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