How hard did the Nerf hit our TPS?

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Postby Sheherezade » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:48 pm

Karock wrote:Just wait until we figure out that there actually are bosses that mana burn and cast long silences on the tank. Oh and for anyone who doubts you owe me a drink when we find the first one.

p.s. frost immune bosses already screw over DK tanks (especially frost DKs) so don't kid yourself about them not screwing us over too


Sapphiron isn't frost immune anymore, they removed it...

DK threat is static, we have no damage shield or retribution aura, only fixed rotations that isn't improved by how much damage we take or how hard the boss hits, we can't pop wings or nuke with everything in our arsenal, because we already are, it just isn't any runes/runic power for it...

This nerf is surely to be adjusted for prot pallys at least, as GC said.
You just need to do like always, calculate the facts, be on them, not back down and just fight for it...like we have done through all of tbc to get the changes we get already now. I don't think that they would have moved up the paladin tank to "MT-able" without this page...
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:51 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:If Tank A does 1400 dps and holds threat fine, and Tank D does 800 dps and holds threat fine, then any and every raid leader will choose Tank A over Tank D...do we really want to be Tank D again???


Yes, I have been saying that for a while.

I just disagree about your false point that mana is an issue while tanking. It isn't. At all. Anywhere. That does not mean we have no other issues - we do. A lot. And this patch made them worse.
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Postby majiben » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:04 pm

Macha wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:If Tank A does 1400 dps and holds threat fine, and Tank D does 800 dps and holds threat fine, then any and every raid leader will choose Tank A over Tank D...do we really want to be Tank D again???


Yes, I have been saying that for a while.

I just disagree about your false point that mana is an issue while tanking. It isn't. At all. Anywhere. That does not mean we have no other issues - we do. A lot. And this patch made them worse.
We normally don't have issues with mana while tanking but throw in a powefrul enough mana burn and we will. That's all he's saying.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:10 pm

Macha wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:If Tank A does 1400 dps and holds threat fine, and Tank D does 800 dps and holds threat fine, then any and every raid leader will choose Tank A over Tank D...do we really want to be Tank D again???


Yes, I have been saying that for a while.

I just disagree about your false point that mana is an issue while tanking. It isn't. At all. Anywhere. That does not mean we have no other issues - we do. A lot. And this patch made them worse.


It actually is while soloing...that is my point...and believe it or not, you are tanking when your soloing heh
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:12 pm

Sheherezade wrote:Sapphiron isn't frost immune anymore, they removed it...


;o that's a whole lot of good news (and obviously news to me =P)

Last blue post I read about it was them saying they thought it was a great way to change the mechanics of a boss fight (and then a post about how he couldn't guarantee that all bosses would be able to be poisoned - to rogues)

^.^ thanks for the info

Out of curiosity would you be able to link to any discussion on him no longer being frost immune or any info about it?
Last edited by Karock on Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:33 pm

Majiben wrote:
Macha wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:If Tank A does 1400 dps and holds threat fine, and Tank D does 800 dps and holds threat fine, then any and every raid leader will choose Tank A over Tank D...do we really want to be Tank D again???


Yes, I have been saying that for a while.

I just disagree about your false point that mana is an issue while tanking. It isn't. At all. Anywhere. That does not mean we have no other issues - we do. A lot. And this patch made them worse.
We normally don't have issues with mana while tanking but throw in a powefrul enough mana burn and we will. That's all he's saying.

That's what you got divine plea and lay on hands for.
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Postby Sheherezade » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:38 pm

Karock wrote:
Sheherezade wrote:Sapphiron isn't frost immune anymore, they removed it...


;o that's a whole lot of good news (and obviously news to me =P)

Last blue post I read about it was them saying they thought it was a great way to change the mechanics of a boss fight (and then a post about how he couldn't guarantee that all bosses would be able to be poisoned - to rogues)

^.^ thanks for the info

Out of curiosity would you be able to link to any discussion on him no longer being frost immune or any info about it?


http://deathknight.info/forum/index.php?topic=3592.msg57177#msg57177
that's from a guy that is in the beta, tanking in frost spec.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:40 pm

Thanks!
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Postby Sheherezade » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:49 pm

I understand why they changed it, since all DKs, no matter what spec or role, is using Icy Touch...we can't spec out of it, it's a core ability...

but back to pallys!

ofc there will be silencing mobs in raid(atleast i think so), maybe not bosses, but still mobs that love to silence and manaburn, it's a great mechanic for interrupting healers and casters...but it has no place in boss-tanking! :P

in tbc there were bosses that burned mana and silenced and whatever. But in tbc we were still considered offtanks, in wotlk we are considered MTs, and thus i think they will remove the manaburns/silences on bosses, but don't count on it dissapearing from the trash mobs, i think there will still be a few of them that is nasty for us. I just hope there is a similar amount of trash mobs that are nasty to ferals, warriors and DKs!
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:03 pm

Sheherezade wrote:I just hope there is a similar amount of trash mobs that are nasty to ferals, warriors and DKs!

The only mob that came close to being hard for a warrior to tank was the rogue on illy council. So you really need a mob that resets the threat table whilst under the influence of a BoP type shield.
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Postby Sheherezade » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:12 pm

baghead wrote:
Sheherezade wrote:I just hope there is a similar amount of trash mobs that are nasty to ferals, warriors and DKs!

The only mob that came close to being hard for a warrior to tank was the rogue on illy council. So you really need a mob that resets the threat table whilst under the influence of a BoP type shield.

see what I did there? ;)

less "was"...more "will be"...

and we just don't know yet, but we can still influence them before they have created too much of the coming t8/9 raids :)

BoP immunity sounds great btw, hehe, poor ferals/warriors :D
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:21 pm

given the rampant problems with prot right now and the 'pallys are fine' attitude by the devs, I find it hard to believe anything will change in the short term.
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Postby Sheherezade » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:30 pm

baghead wrote:given the rampant problems with prot right now and the 'pallys are fine' attitude by the devs, I find it hard to believe anything will change in the short term.


quote from GC:
We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

so I find it believable that they will be fixing our threat if it's too low compared to the other classes.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:32 pm

baghead wrote:given the rampant problems with prot right now and the 'pallys are fine' attitude by the devs, I find it hard to believe anything will change in the short term.


Not too sure about that. Keep in mind, once it goes live, its going to be fairly easy to capture Combat logs to do direct comparison of tank dps/threat/mitigation.

Problem is, that even if we turn out being correct, it may well be a case of a fix coming too late.

Given what happened in TBC, it would be better for Blizzard to err on the side of making paladins slightly over-powered in comparison to warriors and druids for a change.

Making us the under-achiever of the tanks again will probably result in a fairly large exodus of players from the class and will definitely impact how many of us are actually playing as prot in end-game raids.

Our HP deficit is just to easy to see in early raiding, and if our DPS/TPS is in any way questionable, raid leaders will make the easy and obvious choice.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:19 am

snowwight wrote:
Worldie wrote:We never had more TPS than a warrior, we have that only on a heavy raid damage fight due to JoL.


Err, last spreadsheet I saw was ziggys here and it showed paladins with a comfortable lead once raid buffs were accounted for. Was there some sort of error in this?

I'll have a bash at updating this week.

You have to remember however that most peoples observations will be far out as thats a level 80, fully geared comparison. I'd be hugely suprised if we were comparable when we lack our primary threat source (I'm kinda assuming thats why JoL isn't fixed)
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