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Postby Joanadark » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:10 pm

Anyone who intends to solo as Prot will care. I plan to be Ret most of the time, but only when they implement dual specs in 3.1.

As I've said many times, damage buffs and threat buffs cannot coexist. We got threat buffs we didn't ask for, so now it's okay that our damage is getting nerfed. Sigh.


Fuck Baked-In Salv.

stupid stupid stupid stupid terrible idea that completely destroyed the whole "we want tanks to be able to do real damage now to make them more fun yay!" concept. They're only just now realizing it apparently.

Also, I can't understand the JotW nerf at all. In it's current form, ret doesnt have any mana issues when simply maintaining a normal DPS rotation, provided they dont do anything weird like cast Holy Lights. In fact, the way the ret mana bar works has a very healthy similarity to the feel of Energy.
Nerfing this makes no sense. The only logical reason they may be thinking is that it's an attempt to remove Consecrates from a ret paladin's PvE DPS rotation by making them unaffordable, thus nerfing PvE DPS fairly significantly. Because that is primarily what this accomplishes.
I can't fathom why they would want to nerf the most steady predictable element of ret DPS however when the entire stated problem they have with ret is BURST.
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Postby Sarutankah » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:23 pm

I think the mana nerf is ok - I generally use JOL all the time but JOW should net me the 500 or so mana I lost over the 8 seconds between judgements (will test after work to be sure.


I hate the idea of rolling dots, if I wanted that shit I would use SOV...


QQ

:?

Will wait til 80 before I have a tantrum.
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Postby halabar » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:25 pm

Apparently, he wasn't kidding with the "To the Ground Baby" comment.
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Postby Macha » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:26 pm

Well, this effectively destroys prot leveling at a sane speed. Not to mention holy leveling.

I predicted this a long time ago, though. Wonder why it took them so long to overnerf Paladin baseline because Ret scales too good thanks to Sheath.

stupid stupid stupid stupid terrible idea that completely destroyed the whole "we want tanks to be able to do real damage now to make them more fun yay!" concept. They're only just now realizing it apparently.


So true. I wonder who came up with this terrible, terrible idea. Nobody wanted baked-in salv.
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Postby Morganim » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:28 pm

All the doom and gloom talkers are out again.

I wouldnt stress, so many times during this beta people have cried about one of the 3 specs being totaly destroyed until a patch or two later it becomes viable again.

Save the complaints until your 80 on a live realm and your character is unable to tank/dps/heal effectively until them be patient and wait and see what blizzard are doing, i garuntee they have a MUCH better idea about where things are going than you guys do.

I hate the idea of rolling dots, if I wanted that shit I would use SOV...


Look at the % dmg that deep wounds is doing atm, i dont think this will be all bad especially if its holy dmg as it will ignore all armor, although i have a feeling deep wounds ignores armor as well.
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Postby Macha » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:34 pm

Morganim wrote:All the doom and gloom talkers are out again.


Ah, the whiners about whining are out again. QQ more.

Save the complaints until your 80 on a live realm


Except that this is a leveling issue as well.

Please understand the point of a Beta - so far you are failing to get it. A beta is not to wait and see but, indeed, to give feedback on the changes. That is why it is a public beta with so many participants. You really need to understand this, otherwise your blood pressure will always be high when people do what they should do in a beta.
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Postby Morganim » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:41 pm

Macha wrote:
Morganim wrote:All the doom and gloom talkers are out again.


Ah, the whiners about whining are out again. QQ more.

Save the complaints until your 80 on a live realm


Except that this is a leveling issue as well.

Please understand the point of a Beta - so far you are failing to get it. A beta is not to wait and see but, indeed, to give feedback on the changes. That is why it is a public beta with so many participants. You really need to understand this, otherwise your blood pressure will always be high when people do what they should do in a beta.


Im not whining at all, i more than understand that if they have done this, in this case nerfed the damage on seals they obviously believed they are to high and are 'TESTING' the lower damage so you can give 'FEEDBACK', instead of sitting on a forum chewing through the tissue boxes about how X is now impossible.

Also how is this nerf goign to to massivly effect holy or prot leveling? Grats on hitting 80 in an hour or two longer than it would of previous build!
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Postby Andryana » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:41 pm

I just don't understand the reasoning behind this, seriously nerfing SoR when it was already doing pathetic damage and nerfing SoV(wow was it doing really that much damage Oo) was it really needed?

And ret got hit even worse.. but this was a nerf for all paladins specs, all our seals and judgements...
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Postby PsiVen » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:05 am

If they were nerfing JotW to nerf Holy PvP builds, I don't know what to say. Holy was not OP. If they were nerfing it for Ret PvE builds, I don't know what to say. Ret was not OP. I can't fathom what they nerfed SoR/SoV for.

Basically, I have nothing to say...
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:21 am

I'm not too concerned. There's no sign that they've nerfed JoL, right? Then again, I don't play Ret.
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Postby Andryana » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:25 am

moduspwnens wrote:I'm not too concerned. There's no sign that they've nerfed JoL, right? Then again, I don't play Ret.


* Judgement of Light now has a chance to heal the attacker for [ 10% of AP + 10% of Spell Power ]. (Down from [ 18% of AP + 18% of Spell Power ])
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Postby DeadMilliken » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:43 am

The part that really bothers me is the constant constant nerfs to seals / judgements. We are on our 4th round people.

Remember the good ole times when crusader was removed and baseline added to talents? Now we're lucky to even somewhat approach what seals and judgments used to do in prot/holy...

The worrysome part is when JoL is fixed, what kind of position will we be in...
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Postby Proudfoot » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:46 am

Wow, way to screw over Ret. We're going to be right back where we were at 2.0... garbage. No mana, and no ability to chain pot anymore. No way we can deal with a mana burn. No burst and no way to reduce healing. No reliable interupt off the GCD.

The changes will also nerf Ret's sustained dps since we will prob run out of mana again. Say goodbye to raiding? I'm so pissed right now.
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Postby Karock » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:50 am

Morganim wrote:Im not whining at all, i more than understand that if they have done this, in this case nerfed the damage on seals they obviously believed they are to high and are 'TESTING' the lower damage so you can give 'FEEDBACK', instead of sitting on a forum chewing through the tissue boxes about how X is now impossible.

Also how is this nerf goign to to massivly effect holy or prot leveling? Grats on hitting 80 in an hour or two longer than it would of previous build!


You pretty much are whining about people whining, there's no getting around that. In fact I think you take the whining cake for this thread with your comments like "chewing through the tissue boxes."

Beyond that I find it pretty amusing that you tell us to "just try it out" when we've already tried out our CURRENT round of nerfed seals. It's not like this next round of nerfs is going to make us suddenly see the light? is going to be any different? isn't something we've already played and "tested?"

P.S. an "hour or two" of extra killing time is a pretty damn long time
P.P.S. stop pulling numbers out of your ass like they mean something
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Postby Extermi » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:51 am

Most of the changes seems related to re-adjusting Rets damage while lowering the burst. They moved from increasing crit damage to increasing base damage and adding a DOT to the crit of some abilities. It seems numbers where not what they wanted so they reduced most seals&judgements to fit.

I would suspect Ret is now closer to where they want it to be, while Prot is still viable in terms of threat (thanks to the stupidly high aggro multiplier) and holy is "only" affected when soloing. We may not like it but this is probably how it went.

The other changes are also not unexpected. JoL heals by stupid amounts, and my Ret buddy who judges light typically is in the top 3 of effective raid healing in AOE-intense encounters. Reducing "passive" JoL healing while upping "active" Divine Storm healing seems reasonable.

Mana balancing is also worth noting. Specced Ret, on a BG I could toss out 2 or even 3 Holy Lights and then go back to battle to refresh my mana bar in no time. This is extremely strong. I was expecting them to tone this down a bit, cutting it in half (or even less) was a bit unexpected but we have to see how it plays out. I foresee holy lights having a strong impact on your DPS for the next 20 seconds or so.

I dont see much PvE impact, if Ret is lacking mana to keep consecration in the rotation, I foresee its sufficient to seal blood/corruption and judge wisdom. There should be plenty of mana then, but this does not work in PvP obviously.

My take is lets see how this plays out. With Ret being a DPS tree that is so strong, and using very similar / identical abilities to the other trees, it is difficult to balance ret without destroying the damage (_not_ the viability in a group/raid) of the other specs.

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