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Ideas to Fix Retri

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Postby enbee » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:43 am

Lore wrote:
Elsie wrote:Give them a charge/teleport ability like every physical dps.

Enhancement shaman?

Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.

HoJ?

Give them some form of healer disruption like most other physical dps.

Again, HoJ? Repentance?

Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.

What?

Remove our Divine Shield ability for 3 abilities that work almost as good, but not quite as good.

Please no.


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Postby daemonym » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:57 am

Tev wrote:I'd like to see something unique, something that doesn't already belong to another class.

Like for a Crusader Strike effect, Increases all rage, energy, and runic power costs by 25%, and mana costs by 50% for 12 sec or so.

Or maybe an effect like; Increases the targets Global Cooldown timer by 50% or 100%.


either of these two would tickle me to no end of sillyness. granted i would think that 12 seconds would be far too long. its either go oom to stay effective for 12 seconds or do nothign for 12 seconds and die. mebbe more like a random range of 5-8 seconds?
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Postby Elsie » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:41 am

Sigh... I just typed for an hour a concise 3 point case on issues that I see having envolved from my previous posts and the replies. It was lost to "Enter your password again, I don't think you're Elsie anymore." I might type it again later, as a summary would not do justice.
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Postby Agarthalion » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:50 pm

cFirst @ Elsie you should really say what you were going to say tbh.

Second, at level 80 being "bursty" but only taking a class down to 50% HP and then having a load of abilities on CD + autoattack + 2x 1 min cooldown stuns (not interupts) while we get kited and cc'd is what we have in store for us as is.

At level 70, retrodins can do good damage if they get lots of crits in a row, but then they get kited and cc'd til they may get another chance to either get lots of crits and kill their target or get normal hits and get kited and cc'd more until they're dead.
At level 70 Mages can do insane burst as was previously stated, but Moonkins can do as good if not better. Just today I came up against a Moonkin + Shammy combo and just the Moonkin alone did 9.2K damage to me in 3.6 seconds.

(Starfire (5k) + Wrath (2.5) + Moonfire (1.7)
2.4 sec + 1.2 sec + 0 = 3.6 sec **9.2K damage**)


Classes are "bursty" now because of the low HP pools and the different scaling of gear than at level 80. But, at level 80 when our "bursty"ness won't get the job done, we might well be even more nerfed and ill-equipped than we ought to be.

Because as Elsie stated, we don't have the utility for PvP, when our burst doesn't do the job we're useless.
When mages burst isn't good enough, they're a great CC and utility class (counterspell - slow - spellsteal - near infinite kitability). When moonkins burst isn't good enough, they're a great CC class that can kite well at the very least.

Conclusion: At level 70 retribution is great, because our "bursty"ness is enough to kill what we need to kill for the most part. But at level 80 "bursty"ness wont be enough, if balance is sought then Retribution needs something more (and not less) given to it.

Side note: I do like the thought of an exorcism with reduced damage but with a silencing effect against all classes. The MS is a bit boring of an ability, fixing Repentance / HoJ to shorter duration shorter cooldown could be nice.
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Postby fafhrd » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:47 pm

Agarthalion wrote:Side note: I do like the thought of an exorcism with reduced damage but with a silencing effect against all classes. The MS is a bit boring of an ability, fixing Repentance / HoJ to shorter duration shorter cooldown could be nice.


Anti-immunity debuff imo. Something like "Targets afflicted by your Exorcism cannot benefit from Ice Block, Divine Shield, Hand of Protection, Cheat-Death or Guardian Spirit for 3s. Does not remove immunities that are already in effect. Would be delicious, delicious group PvP utility.
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Postby Agarthalion » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:09 pm

fafhrd wrote:Anti-immunity debuff imo. Something like "Targets afflicted by your Exorcism cannot benefit from Ice Block, Divine Shield, Hand of Protection, Cheat-Death or Guardian Spirit for 3s. Does not remove immunities that are already in effect. Would be delicious, delicious group PvP utility.


Dont care for that too much, priests can massdispell all already-in-effect cooldowns, 3 seconds of not being able to use Ice Block or DS isn't worth a glyph even imo, much less what is needed to "Balance" Retribution come level 80.

Even if it would be as powerful as massdispell I'd rather not wish for that than having an offensive spell like a silence or interupt. But at least we're getting some fresh ideas and the direction of the topic seems to be shifting from "QQ Ret needs nerf" to "Ret can and ought to be balanced."

And a final but separate note, hopefully Blizzard can Balance Ret according to PvE standards as well, as the new hotfix patches have decreased my PvE dps by 20% since 3.0.2, specifically because of the PvP whining. As mostly all specs are losing their "Raid Utility" do to "Raid Stacking", Feral Druids are promised to get 95% of Rogue dps, Retribution PvE should be likewise 95% of Rogue dps as well. I doubt that will happen with so many people whining about how badly Retribution dps needs to be nerfed though. I'm hoping that Blizzard realizes just how close level 80 really is and won't continue to nerf a spec that at level 80 is likely to suffer with the status quo.
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:02 am

One big thing that would solve a large number of pvp issues would be to have divine shield prevent physical attacks. Ret's still extremely high damage, but the lack of a movement impairment tool makes them substantially easier to kite 1v1 than other melee. The killer is just that the class has a 5-minute cooldown to more or less auto-win against almost every class. Priests can mass dispel if they're not stunned, repentanced, arcane torrented, or just straight-up spiked into the floor; rogues can vanish, sprint, and hope to get out of visibility range before the hammer comes down; mages can pull some stunts to protect themselves. Almost anyone else just has to ride it out and hope to outrun an unstoppable opponent; if hoj/repentance are up, it's over. So I'd say that's the real backbreaker that's got a lot of people up in arms, and removing the "one win per 5 minutes" would go a long way toward quieting the masses while having a minimal impact on sustained ret functionality. By only removing the physical damage, holy paladins (who were in need of help) are largely uneffected.

Giving other classes ponies would also serve as a balancing mechanic.

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Postby uke » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:19 am

You know Splug, I hear the headless horseman has a pony that can drop for you :wink: .

Besides, you got doggies, dinosaurs, and giant lizards you can ride. Isn't that cool enough? 8)
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Postby Agarthalion » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Well I certainly would give my attacks while DS'd once per 5 mins for actually being balanced NOT around the fact that I can win once per 5 mins. (Hopefully that made sense but I think it does.) And now with the new hotfix our mana returns are seriously nerfed, and using full PvE rotations I'm going oom after a few minutes without using any heals.

Seriously, Arcane Mages can deal 11.6K damage in 5 seconds flat, Moonkins can deal 11.2K damage in 3.6 seconds flat, I've seen it happen. Yet Retribution is the only spec receiving serious PvE/PvP changing nerfs hotfix after hotfix, and I think its quite clearly because of our 1kill/5min "iWin button." I wish Blizzard would just break the damned thing so we aren't balanced around our damned crutch!
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Postby Elsie » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:02 am

Splug wrote:One big thing that would solve a large number of pvp issues would be to have divine shield prevent physical attacks. Ret's still extremely high damage, but the lack of a movement impairment tool makes them substantially easier to kite 1v1 than other melee. The killer is just that the class has a 5-minute cooldown to more or less auto-win against almost every class. Priests can mass dispel if they're not stunned, repentanced, arcane torrented, or just straight-up spiked into the floor; rogues can vanish, sprint, and hope to get out of visibility range before the hammer comes down; mages can pull some stunts to protect themselves. Almost anyone else just has to ride it out and hope to outrun an unstoppable opponent; if hoj/repentance are up, it's over. So I'd say that's the real backbreaker that's got a lot of people up in arms, and removing the "one win per 5 minutes" would go a long way toward quieting the masses while having a minimal impact on sustained ret functionality. By only removing the physical damage, holy paladins (who were in need of help) are largely uneffected.

Giving other classes ponies would also serve as a balancing mechanic.

-Splug

There's a spell caused Blessing of Protection. I think that's what you're looking for.

A more sensible idea would to add a different kind of Forbearance to Avenging Wrath and Divine shield. Therefore you could use Divine Protection with Avenging Wrath without being overkill. This would also increase ret's defensive abilities.

Another would be to remove forebearance from Divine Shield and make it strictly debuff and spell damage immunity. So you can avenging wrath, divine shield, and divine protection at a cost. This is quite similar to Cloak of Shadows, Evasion, and Shadow Dance.
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Postby Agarthalion » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:28 pm

I certainly like the sound of that idea, however now we can't even use AW and DS within a reasonable time of each other, its worst now than it was pre3.0.
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