Ideas to Fix Retri

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Postby Khayne » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:01 am

Proudfoot wrote:
Lore wrote:
Elsie wrote:Give them a charge/teleport ability like every physical dps.

Enhancement shaman?

Enhancement shaman have spirit wolves that allow them to sprint and break movement impares. Granted it's only once every 3 mins. They could also use some love here.

Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.

HoJ?
HoJ is not a reliable interupt, and it's not off the GCD like ALL other classes interupt.


Shaman shocks are off GCD now?

Now, while i´m absolutely wrecking atm in bg´s, i dont still see ret as too op. Basically, what changes in my attack cycle at lvl 80?
I wont get new attacks, nothing to help with the incoming CC´s, and i can´t see my damage be as big portion of lvl 80 health poosl as it is now. The 2 things that i´ll get that´ll help are Toughness and imp. HoJ.

There´s a world of difference in fighting in an AV and arena. In AV i can often circle around something that blocks vision, and start the fight right there on the toes of my prey with judgement and melee before they even start. In Arena i´ll get spells and CC on me before i ever reach them.

Yes, we may be slightly OP at level 70, but i dont think it´s wise to get us nerfed and then at lvl 80 wonder why we aren´t up to par.

Hell, last night i got 3 shot by an arcane mage in a span of 3 seconds. Fireball (crit)=>Arcane Barrage (these 2 took 7k+ hp off me)=>Fire Blast(crit, maybe 600ish overkill so not even that close to stay alive). Dead. That´s with 2 instant casts in it also, so if our damage is ridicilous at the moment, i want to know what that mage is when he does same from 20-40yards range..
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Postby Proudfoot » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:43 am

Shaman shocks are off GCD now?

Now, while i´m absolutely wrecking atm in bg´s, i dont still see ret as too op. Basically, what changes in my attack cycle at lvl 80?
I wont get new attacks, nothing to help with the incoming CC´s, and i can´t see my damage be as big portion of lvl 80 health poosl as it is now. The 2 things that i´ll get that´ll help are Toughness and imp. HoJ.

There´s a world of difference in fighting in an AV and arena. In AV i can often circle around something that blocks vision, and start the fight right there on the toes of my prey with judgement and melee before they even start. In Arena i´ll get spells and CC on me before i ever reach them.

Yes, we may be slightly OP at level 70, but i dont think it´s wise to get us nerfed and then at lvl 80 wonder why we aren´t up to par.

Hell, last night i got 3 shot by an arcane mage in a span of 3 seconds. Fireball (crit)=>Arcane Barrage (these 2 took 7k+ hp off me)=>Fire Blast(crit, maybe 600ish overkill so not even that close to stay alive). Dead. That´s with 2 instant casts in it also, so if our damage is ridicilous at the moment, i want to know what that mage is when he does same from 20-40yards range..


Shaman got a brand new shock called "wind shock" that does no damage and interupts casting... this shock is off of the GCD.

I've had very similar experiences with Arcane mages in Arenas. A double mage team killed us in 2 seconds flat. I got hit with several instant fireballs and arcane barage and managed to bubble right before I died from another instant cast. My partner died in the next 2 seconds with nothing he could do about it (a druid). Even IF I could have cought up to one of the mages and done some damage they can Ice block... How is this balanced and Ret is OP?
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Postby Robbo » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:10 am

imo, ret paladin's have been fine since they got rid of the spell damage CS.

Just remember you have team mates. I find that most people who complain about ret being "broken" are the people who fail to see that PvP isn't about 1v1.

That's why ret/rogue is one of the best 2v2 comps for ret. They complete what we don't have, and vice versa.

Also, if you're getting kited you're not using all your tools correctly. I'm sorry, I've never had that much trouble, cleanse + HoF + two stuns + bubble + trinket (and in my case stoneform as well) is more than enough to stay in melee. Sure, when that stuff's on cooldown its trouble, but that goes for any other class as well.
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Postby fafhrd » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:14 pm

Proudfoot wrote:
Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.

HoJ?
HoJ is not a reliable interupt, and it's not off the GCD like ALL other classes interupt.


Silencing shot not only is on the GCD (well, admittedly I haven't checked it since 3.0, but given that it does damage, I doubt it's suddenly off the GCD), it has a 35-41 yard travel time before it takes effect. Scatter Shot had travel time added to it in 2.0, and iirc is also on the GCD. Intimidate is on the GCD, subject to not even being applied until the pet's next melee swing after the spell is cast, and has no effect if the swing misses or gets dodged/blocked/parried. All 3 of the above are talents too, unlike HoJ.

So no, paladin interrupts are not in some horribly persecuted class of interrupts, they are in the same boat as any other interrupt that has a secondary effect (stun or damage).
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Postby Elsie » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:28 pm

All melee except paladin have interrupts under 15s cd that is off the GCD now. Further, two of them have a disarm.

Saying HoJ and repentance is an interrupt is not a valid argument. By that definition, cheap shot, charge, kidney shot, blackout, the old mace spec, blind, polymorph, silence, silence shot, scatter shot, etc are all interrupts. The fact that HoJ can silence for 2s makes absolutely 0 difference in pvp since they are stunned anyway.

Healer disruption is not an incapacitate. I doubt anyone would call Gouge that, so repentance should be viewed the same. Frankly, most physical dps can lock out a healer in short-term -and- control their dps target. Examples are kick (6s lockout), kidney shot (5s stun on dps target), and wound poison. Or pummel, charge stun, snare, mortal strike. etc. Even hunters have similar, as well as enhancement shamans (in wotlk).

We are woefully behind all physical DPS in terms of utility. Ret always has been. No one takes ret for lack of DPS in pvp. They simply see the utility as less viable.

What are ret's problems?
Cannot stay in melee.
Cannot manipulate multiple opponents well
Does not have many defensive moves
All prevention/removal is magic based
Cannot effectively prevent the lock-down of an ally.
Lack of preventative abilities (snares, damage shields, roots, etc)

Possible solutions:
Give retribution a form of teleportation, high speed increase, or charge.
Make repentance 9s in line with blink and sheep
Make the CD on repentance lower via talents in line with preparation, sheep, and hunter sleeps.
Remove Divine Shield in favor of mostly preventative abilities like rogues
Make Hand spells stronger, such as BoF preventing all stuns on a target, Sacrifice into a larger damage shield, etc.
Give retribution a snare or root effect.
Make a talent giving Crusader Strike "50% less healing done by the target" debuff.
Make a talent to extremely buff judgment debuffs for a shorter period of time.

I'd gladly lose a lot of burst for these abilities.
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Postby fizikz » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:12 am

Kellern wrote:right now, blizz says Retri is too "bursty" which makes it OP in pvp.

So why not.. take reckoning from the prot tree, add it to retri as a "chance on hit" to gain the extra attacks.. probably 5% or something and duration increase due to weapon speeds.

So prot gets free space to add better prot stuff, and retri gets better dps over time.

You'd have to take a few of the crappier talents out of ret to maintain talent points balance but I think this might be a decent solution.. a paladin answer to Flurry and Sword Specialisation and things of that nature.

Thoughts?



you want to give us sword spec to LOWER our burst? ... to the people who think this isnt more burst, how you would define burst? it's a crit (2x weapon damage) that can CRIT. (one crit and one hit would be 300%, two crits would be 400% weapon damage)

edit: quoted wrong


Possible solutions:
Give retribution a form of teleportation, high speed increase, or charge.

I don't see this happening. "homogenization" and all that. already suggested many times.
Make repentance 9s in line with blink and sheep

It was like this a little while ago, though cc is actually 10 second duration in pvp. they nerfed it because it's basically blind with a 1 min CD, longer range and no energy cost (not compared to roughly 1/7th of a rogue's energy bar, 1/6th without talents)
Make the CD on repentance lower via talents in line with preparation, sheep, and hunter sleeps.

maybe, but then we'd have a 30 sec cd 7 second stun and a 6-10 second incapacitate right after, every 30 seconds? both instant cast as well...
Remove Divine Shield in favor of mostly preventative abilities like rogues

...what? seriously? -.- while we're at it, lets take portals away from mages and just give them the ability to summon people, and maybe make potions that you can only carry one of...what i'm getting at is the bubble is the signature paladin move, they won't remove it.
Make Hand spells stronger, such as BoF preventing all stuns on a target, Sacrifice into a larger damage shield, etc.

I agree more powerful hand spells would be nice to see, however preventing all stuns seems rather powerful, as it's already a free stun break every 25 seconds.
Give retribution a snare or root effect.

Could happen, they gave feral one after saying it wasnt necessary.
Make a talent giving Crusader Strike "50% less healing done by the target" debuff.

again, I don't see this happening as it seems like the band-aid fix that "oh a class is suffering in pvp? just give them a MS effect and move on"
Make a talent to extremely buff judgment debuffs for a shorter period of time.

Could go a lot of different ways with this... not sure if i like it or not.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:52 am

Elsie wrote:Way to fix ret, pick any two:

Give them a charge/teleport ability like every physical dps.
Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.
Give them some form of healer disruption like most other physical dps.
Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.
Remove our Divine Shield ability for 3 abilities that work almost as good, but not quite as good.

right now, even with the "High burst" we do either lots of damage or zero damage in arena. The reason? We're way too kitable. BoFreedom != charge, vanish, sprint, feral charge, cyclone, intercept, blink, .... you get the idea. Also healing != cc. We do 0 dps when we heal, even the instant FoL since Paladin is entirely strike based.


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Postby Proudfoot » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:02 am

Oh I've got an idea that would help all specs of Paladin... I don't think it's that original but it sure would be nice.

Change Exorcism to be useable on all targets and reduce it's damage significantly. Give exorcism an interupt affect. Remove the ability from the GCD.

Beta
Exorcism (Rank 9) - Deals 847 to 945 holy damage. Only useable on undead and demons - 15 sec cooldown

Suggestion
Exorcism (Rank 9) - Deals 350 to 450 holy damage. It also interrupts spellcasting and prevents any spell in that school from being cast for 2 sec. - 15 sec cooldown
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Postby Elsie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:39 am

Proudfoot wrote:Exorcism (Rank 9) - Deals 350 to 450 holy damage. It also interrupts spellcasting and prevents any spell in that school from being cast for 2 sec. - 15 sec cooldown

Change to:
Exorcism (Rank 9) - Deals 350 to 450 holy damage. It also interrupts spellcasting and prevents any spell in that school from being cast for 2 sec. - 15 sec cooldown. This spell deals double damage against undead and demons.

To reply to the incredibly segmented post:
Classes are already homogenized. We are getting Holy Deep Wound, we already have Ranged Execute Lite. There is only so much uniqueness to go around with the parameters of the game.

About repentance: Yes, it exactly means we'd have that. However, this is no where near current things in the game. Rogues can stun, stun, blind, stun, stun and prep for more. Mages can sheep, freeze, freeze (if talented), and cold snap/ice block for more. This even ignores several talents making both easier and more often.

Yes, the whole point is to make hand spells worthwhile. Breaking a stun is No Where Near As Strong as stunning in the first place. At best? Kidney shot is a 5 second stun. At worst? You just blew the opponent's Blessing of Freedom on the healer instead of the dps. You also probably interrupted a heal being cast to save that dps. You also probably had the paladin blinded or sheeped or silenced or snared anyway, so you effectively negated their defensiveness. The BoF talent is lackluster - minorly effective overall.

As to divine shield? Yes I'm serious. Divine shield is a crutch used to keep our other abilities down. I'd gladly give up divine shield for a toolset like evasion, cloak of shadows, and pain suppression. Hell that lets me pick which aspect I want when I want it. Immunity to damage is wonderful, but I really don't need to be immune to poison against a mage, or immune to spells against a warrior.

Judgements are the easiest method of implementing utility. Simply make a new talent "For 20 seconds, the effects of judgment of light and wisdom are increased by 100/200/300%. Judgment of Justice reduces the target's run speed by twice the amount normally reduced. Also, Judgment of Justice prevents any teleport effects"

Thus, JoL will return ~1k hp per proc and Judgment of Justice will reduce run speed to 100% then 16% if they have boar's speed, 30% for talented rogue/paladins. Mage loses blink, hunter loses disengage.

Furthermore, re-read my suggestion on paladin. Reduces healing done by 50%. This is NOT MS. It's the inverse of MS.

Change Hand spells to physical school. Keep blessings as magic. This makes paladin buffs in line with other melee.

Finally, Consider this:

Honored Judgment.
For 20 seconds, any healing done or received by a target debuffed with Judgment of Light, Justice, or Wisdom also heals 3 members of your party by the same amount (distributed if possible). This ability is usable every 90 seconds.

There's some real utility.
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Postby Morganim » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:55 am

Elsie wrote:
Furthermore, re-read my suggestion on paladin. Reduces healing done by 50%. This is NOT MS. It's the inverse of MS.
.


They never managed to get that mechanic working properly it always did 50% MORE healing or nothing at all
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Postby Elsie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:06 am

Morganim wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Furthermore, re-read my suggestion on paladin. Reduces healing done by 50%. This is NOT MS. It's the inverse of MS.
.


They never managed to get that mechanic working properly it always did 50% MORE healing or nothing at all

It worked perfectly fine on Anetheron. Second Boss of Hyjal.
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Postby Morganim » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:11 am

Elsie wrote:
Morganim wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Furthermore, re-read my suggestion on paladin. Reduces healing done by 50%. This is NOT MS. It's the inverse of MS.
.


They never managed to get that mechanic working properly it always did 50% MORE healing or nothing at all

It worked perfectly fine on Anetheron. Second Boss of Hyjal.


Hmm yeah forgot about that fight.
Wonder why it never worked for FT wep then and they scrapped the idea
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Postby Elsie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:28 am

Morganim wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Morganim wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Furthermore, re-read my suggestion on paladin. Reduces healing done by 50%. This is NOT MS. It's the inverse of MS.
.


They never managed to get that mechanic working properly it always did 50% MORE healing or nothing at all

It worked perfectly fine on Anetheron. Second Boss of Hyjal.


Hmm yeah forgot about that fight.
Wonder why it never worked for FT wep then and they scrapped the idea

Flametongue weapon -was- Mortal Strike. They scrapped it because Flametongue Totem ended up too powerful, and probably with the knowledge of FT in wotlk was being eyed for spell power.
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Postby semp » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:04 am

Suggestion
Exorcism (Rank 9) - Deals 350 to 450 holy damage. It also interrupts spellcasting and prevents any spell in that school from being cast for 2 sec. - 15 sec cooldown

This sounds awesome, and if only the Exorcism Glyph worked on players...

Without mortal strike or a reliable interupt, Ret paladins rely almost soley on burst damage to kill in PVP.
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Postby Tev » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:27 am

I'd like to see something unique, something that doesn't already belong to another class.

Like for a Crusader Strike effect, Increases all rage, energy, and runic power costs by 25%, and mana costs by 50% for 12 sec or so.

Or maybe an effect like; Increases the targets Global Cooldown timer by 50% or 100%.

The first is almost an inverse theory to what MS is. MS allows for a target to be burst, where CS would take that burst away (for Rage, Energey, and a lesser extent Runic Power). Of coarse on the issue of mana it would help deplete the longevity of a mana caster (especially a healer) without actually taking any power away from them (healer can still heal for the full amount, but not for as long).

The second is pretty much an across the board slowing effect on all special abilities. Healers can't heal quite as much, DPS can't spam moves in a perfectly timed rotation any more. Not sure if 50% or 100% would be a better figure as everything is tied to the GCD (100% is likely too much).

Well, here is me putting a bet on some other class getting a similar effect to this before us (Not pally QQ, just that the last time I had an idea for something for a class, the implemented it.... for another class that didn't need it)
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