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Tanking Question

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Tanking Question

Postby Kensu » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:04 am

Hello been trolling the site a few weeks I learned a lot and wanted to first off thank the community for everything they contributed. I have not been playing wow that long as my main toon is a 68 warlock (been playing about a 2 months or so).

Anyways onto my question. I was planing on playing a Death Knight when they came out and making him my main toon over my warlock. But as I was reading though the basic training threads I am slightly concerned about the ability to tank without a shield after reading the way that the attack table works.

Now I did the math and it breaks down like this. Vs a level 83 mob with 540 defense rating a DK would have:
10% Miss
24.4% Parry (+10% from blade barrier talent)
19.4% Dodge (+5% from anticipation talent)

53.8% Total avoidance

That leaves 46.2% normal hits on the attack table which is a lot compared to the pally who can get regular attacks off the table altogether.

Do you think that the bonus +45% armor from frost stance and +15% armor from the toughtness talent is enough mitigation to cover for the loss of the shield? Or are we going to be taking tons of spikey damage?

Winchester wrote:122.96 Defense Rating = 1% Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block


Does defense rating give 1% Miss/Dodge/Parry per 122.96 aka 3% avoidance total? If so then 540 defense rating would give not only give 5.6% miss but a total of 17.4% from all 3.

I don't want to roll a tank class that cannot tank in a raid situation. Also I am just using basic stats that any DK tank build would have as all the talents I mentioned are first teir talents. I do plan on raiding and being a MT or OT. Please tell me what you think as I am brand new to the raiding scene on WoW. Thanks in advance.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:24 am

Basically, the DK tanking style is rather amusing. Yes it takes more damage than other tanks per single hit, however, you got plenty of cooldowns to mitigate it. Bone Armor, Icebound Fortitude, etc...

Basically your job would be to manage to mitigate any hit you don't avoid as much as possible :)
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Postby Yinramu » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:58 am

Worldie wrote:Basically, the DK tanking style is rather amusing. Yes it takes more damage than other tanks per single hit, however, you got plenty of cooldowns to mitigate it. Bone Armor, Icebound Fortitude, etc...

Basically your job would be to manage to mitigate any hit you don't avoid as much as possible :)


This is a very good way to describe it. Rather than spamming your mitigation and having 1-2 long cooldown "uber" migitigators, you have a few short cooldown large mitigation abilities. It's a certain amount of learning when you need to use them, and when you don't need to use them.

I really feel it's much more active than any other tanking class: You're not only fighting your own global cooldowns for threat, you're fighting them for mitigation, and having to play (basically) a few steps ahead of the fight. I can also see Death Knight tanks playing a tighter game with their healers when there's raid/party damage present: you throw down your mitigation abilities so they can concentrate for a few seconds elsewhere without having to worry quite as much about you.

Edit: I should say I can see you being able to play a tighter game with your healers. Obviously they should be able to be on top of that sort of damage - you can consciously make it easier for them without having to worry about that cooldown not being up later in the fight (again, if you're on top of the fight).
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Postby majiben » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:06 am

As worldie said a DK's rotation of an array of constantly used mitigation tools (as opposed to warriors and paladins who only have HS/SB ). Let's not forget that as you showed a DK with only defense and no parry or dodge rating has over half the attack table filled while the other tanks will have less. I dare say that DKs will be one of the most challenging tanks to play because you have to work on their survival constantly while tanking while the other classes are set and forget for the most part.

As far as loss of armor from losing their shield, DKs have a 1.65 modifier on armor from frost presence which should go a long way to mitigating hits.
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Postby Kensu » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:12 am

Ok that helps a bit thanks for the responses. I still would like to know the full function of the defense rating.

1)Does 540 defense give 5.6% miss only or 5.6% to miss, parry, and dodge for a total of 17.4% avodiance?

2)Also does defense rating have diminshing returns like parry and dodge?

And given the choice to stack parry and to stack dodge, I would likly stack parry and use a big fat 2 hander. That way I can speed up the hits with the 2 hander every time I parry.

Majiben wrote:Let's not forget that as you showed a DK with only defense and no parry or dodge rating has over half the attack table filled while the other tanks will have less.


Yes, I am aware. I was trying to keep it as simple as possable as I am not as smart as a lot of these guys with the number crunching and I am still trying to iron out the basic stuff.

Majiben wrote:As far as loss of armor from losing their shield, DKs have a 1.65 modifier on armor from frost presence which should go a long way to mitigating hits.


Ahh cool I didn't know they upgraded it from 1.45 to 1.65 from frost presence. That actually makes me think of a third question

3)Is there a dimishing return on stacking armor rating? I would assume yes.

Thanks again for the feedback.
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Postby majiben » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:11 am

Kensu wrote:1)Does 540 defense give 5.6% miss only or 5.6% to miss, parry, and dodge for a total of 17.4% avodiance?
Ignoring diminishing returns 140 additional defense skill (a lvl 80 has 400 defense skill naked) will grant the following:
5.6% miss (all classes)
5.6% dodge (all classes)
5.6% parry (paladin, warrior, deathkinght, rogue, and hunter)
5.6% block (paladin, warrior, shamman)
5.6% crit reduction (all classes)
Remember in the actual game everyone of those stats but cirt reduction and block, there will be diminishing returns.
Kensu wrote:2)Also does defense rating have diminshing returns like parry and dodge?

And given the choice to stack parry and to stack dodge, I would likly stack parry and use a big fat 2 hander. That way I can speed up the hits with the 2 hander every time I parry.
Defense rating itself does not directly suffer diminishing returns. Rather think of defense rating as 1/3 dodge, 1/3 parry and 1/3 miss. Each one of those sub stat's diminishing returns is calcualted seperately. So if you have a lot of dodge for instance, then defense rating's parry and miss chance would hardly feel DR but dodge would.

As for stacking parry on a DK, you will best off taking the best gear you can get regardless of if it is dodge or parry heavy. Don't forget that parry rating is only about 3/4ths as good as dodge before dimishing returns from a pure avoidance viewpoint. Tanking gear in wrath will have a lot more Parry rating than in TBC son don't worry :-). Also DKS will have high parry due to their talents and DK only weapon enchants that increase parry by 2% for 1h and 4% for 2h.
Kensu wrote:
Majiben wrote:As far as loss of armor from losing their shield, DKs have a 1.65 modifier on armor from frost presence which should go a long way to mitigating hits.


Ahh cool I didn't know they upgraded it from 1.45 to 1.65 from frost presence. That actually makes me think of a third question

3)Is there a dimishing return on stacking armor rating? I would assume yes.

Thanks again for the feedback.
Yes there is. But the odd thing is even if each 1k amor provides less damage reduction than the previous 1k they oxymoronically extend your life by the same amount of time.

That's a whole other effective health (EH) discussion there. Just wear the best gear you have. Not like you can purposely stack armor anyways :-) (just rings, and cloaks)
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Postby Sheherezade » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:29 am

don't forget that DKs gain 25% of their str as parry rating baseline! :)

so yes, DKs will parry more.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:00 am

Sheherezade wrote:don't forget that DKs gain 25% of their str as parry rating baseline! :)

so yes, DKs will parry more.
That's already reflected in the parry chance, I think.
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Postby Kensu » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:23 pm

Ok that helps a lot Majiben thank you for your response. time to dig a little deeper into the rabbit hole.

Winchester wrote:An avoidance rating is any stat that makes you avoid an attack, basically Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block. However block is only a partial avoidance.
39.348 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge.
49.185 Parry Rating = 1% Parry.
16.395 Block Rating = 1% Block.
122.96 Defense Rating = 1% Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block


Majiben wrote:Defense rating itself does not directly suffer diminishing returns. Rather think of defense rating as 1/3 dodge, 1/3 parry and 1/3 miss. Each one of those sub stat's diminishing returns is calcualted seperately. So if you have a lot of dodge for instance, then defense rating's parry and miss chance would hardly feel DR but dodge would.


A far as I can tell dodge and miss both function the same, barring some talent I am unaware of that triggers off one or the other. So if there were such a thing as a miss rating it would be the same as dodge rating (39.348 = 1% miss). So for a DK 122.96 defense rating is worth 127.881 1%'s worth of parry, dodge, and our pretend miss rating if I were to get them seperately.

122.96 = actual cost in defense rating to get 1% of each avoidance
127.881 = actual value of the if you were to get 1% of each though their seperate rating stats

122.96/127.881 = .96151

That means its about 3.848% more effective per point to use defense rating. Therefore point for point defense rating is worth more. granted its only worth a little bit more but it is more. Been a little while since I have done math like this so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Point to all this is that if give the choice between defense rating and other types of avoidance its more efficient to choose the defense rating (assuming the values are the same). I use a mod called Pawn lets you assign a number to each stat so you ca quickly compare gear in game. makes it really fast to see if something is an upgrade. Also this information will help when choosing what to socket.

Majiben wrote:But the odd thing is even if each 1k amor provides less damage reduction than the previous 1k they oxymoronically extend your life by the same amount of time.

That's a whole other effective health (EH) discussion there.


Yea, you opened a can of worms. I searched though the forums a bit and was unable to find anything other than that if you have a block value this increses your effective health because it takes off the top of what you get hit by.

Now in regards to armor at first glance it doesn't make sense that with deminishing returns 1k armor increase does the same at 5000-6000 armor and say 20,000-21,000 armor. However depending on how the curve works on the deminishing returns if you looked at it something like this. Incresing your mitigation from 80% to 81% you are removing 5% of the damage that is remaining. In other words you are going from taking 20% of the damage coming in to taking 19% of the damage.

Is that what you ment by effective heath and 1k armor having deminishing returns, but still extending you time alive?
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Postby crabcrouton » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:31 am

I recommend reading Satrina's EH guides on Tankspot.com for further info on EH. Satrina and Ciderhelm are the earliest vocal proponents of that theory so they're the ones to see.

Miss is invaluable anytime you're stunned/rooted/CC'ed etc. where you cannot Dodge or Parry. Also when your back is turned for some reason, Miss is your only avoidance. Miss also works against ranged attacks (I could be mistaken on this). There are also bosses with abilities like Overpower which they can use on a Dodge but not on a Miss.

As far as your assessment of Def vs Dodge/Parry/Miss, remember that at the end of the day, there's still no Miss rating which means basing a judgement on its existence will give you a misleading answer. 1 Def rating is still your only source of Miss. It's not as simple as taking the sum of ratings and looking at a theoretical X% better or worse, because too many factors come into play.

It's much harder to quantify mitigation cooldowns on the DK in relation to passive mitigation because until now, no class really relied on that as a core tanking mechanic. Still, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily a weaker strategy.
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Postby majiben » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:47 am

Kensu wrote:Is that what you ment by effective heath and 1k armor having diminishing returns, but still extending your time alive by the same amount of time?
I added a little in there that summarizes what armor does. So even if adding 1k armor to 16k yields 1%* more damage reduction and adding 1k to 17k armor of yield .8%* more damage reduction, both increase your life by 2* seconds for a total of 4* seconds more life between 16k armor and 18k.

*numbers used are only for examples and do not reflect the actual data. Only the trends it takes.
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