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seal of corruption is BLEH

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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:39 am

I used purely theoretical numbers to illustrate a point. Vanifae seemed to (incorrectly) assume that 1 point of white damage is 1.43 threat and holy damage is 1.9 threat. As you yourself pointed out, Holy is 2.7 instead. The ratio is still 1:1.9 white to holy.

However, to look at ratios alone is meaningless because threat is not an issue of ratios, it's an issue of raw numbers. Maximizing the amount of threat in a fixed amount of time is the whole point. It's also why the OP was confused as to why SoV/Corr does less damage than his white damage.

Therefore, a tankadin should always look at two abilities and compare not just their damage ratios relative to each other, but also their threat modifiers relative to each other and then calculate the raw numerical difference in tps. That last part is the crucial point. You'd always get a clearer picture of why ability X is worth using despite seeming like it's a weak ability. Damage meters in this case never tell the whole story.

Right now threat is approaching ridiculous numbers, last I heard someone was pushing 10k bursts and 6k sustained. If the gap in raw numbers continue to grow, then it doesn't matter that melee damage continues to ramp up (as Vanifae points out) because holy threat (in this case SoV/Corr) ramps up faster.
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Postby Kethion » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:56 am

crabcrouton wrote:I used purely theoretical numbers to illustrate a point. Vanifae seemed to (incorrectly) assume that 1 point of white damage is 1.43 threat and holy damage is 1.9 threat. As you yourself pointed out, Holy is 2.7 instead. The ratio is still 1:1.9 white to holy.

However, to look at ratios alone is meaningless because threat is not an issue of ratios, it's an issue of raw numbers. Maximizing the amount of threat in a fixed amount of time is the whole point. It's also why the OP was confused as to why SoV/Corr does less damage than his white damage.

Therefore, a tankadin should always look at two abilities and compare not just their damage ratios relative to each other, but also their threat modifiers relative to each other and then calculate the raw numerical difference in tps. That last part is the crucial point. You'd always get a clearer picture of why ability X is worth using despite seeming like it's a weak ability. Damage meters in this case never tell the whole story.

Right now threat is approaching ridiculous numbers, last I heard someone was pushing 10k bursts and 6k sustained. If the gap in raw numbers continue to grow, then it doesn't matter that melee damage continues to ramp up (as Vanifae points out) because holy threat (in this case SoV/Corr) ramps up faster.


Paragraph one: I think Vanifae was commenting on white damage only, not excluding holy damage from the modifier as well.

Paragraphs 2 and 3: Yes. But that is the case regardless of the baked-in salvation buffer now that our white DPS isn't terrible.

Paragraph 4: Sounds about right. In full ret PvP gear (battlemaster's trinkets included) on the beta I push 4-5k TPS without much difficulty. I just got 2 pc "heroic" t7 and some ring from naxx 10 so I need to recheck this due to the 200 ish BV gain in addition to the 2 piece (10% bonus to HotR).
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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:18 am

Kethion wrote:Paragraph one: I think Vanifae was commenting on white damage only, not excluding holy damage from the modifier as well.

Maybe. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Regardless, the assumption that X dps = X * Y tps just falls flat. Like my earlier post points out, ShoR has a high threat modifier component. Any time you have that, the ratios change (suddenly 1 holy dps =/= 1.9 tps, it now depends if it was 1 holy ShoR dps or not). ShoR is a primary ability we use too, not like AS or anything.

To say that DPS = Threat or "Low Seal damage < high melee damage" is entirely misleading to what the threat numbers are showing.
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Postby Sheherezade » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:30 am

I tested out SoC (is that the right one, heh?) last night in TK, and I kept seeing these really small one digit numbers...so is it still like you get a really small damage from hitting a fully stacked SoC target or did i have some kind of damage shield or something?

I noticed way too many buffs from what I'm used to having, including a lot that I haven't seen before! :)
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Postby majiben » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:32 am

Sheherezade wrote:I tested out SoC (is that the right one, heh?) last night in TK, and I kept seeing these really small one digit numbers...so is it still like you get a really small damage from hitting a fully stacked SoC target or did i have some kind of damage shield or something?

I noticed way too many buffs from what I'm used to having, including a lot that I haven't seen before! :)
You get a small boost while hitting a fully stacked SoV target. It's small though, on the order of 4-7 holy damage per swing.
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Postby Sheherezade » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:34 am

Majiben wrote:
Sheherezade wrote:I tested out SoC (is that the right one, heh?) last night in TK, and I kept seeing these really small one digit numbers...so is it still like you get a really small damage from hitting a fully stacked SoC target or did i have some kind of damage shield or something?

I noticed way too many buffs from what I'm used to having, including a lot that I haven't seen before! :)
You get a small boost while hitting a fully stacked SoV target. It's small though, on the order of 4-7 holy damage per swing.

yeah, that's about right, that's the numbers i was seeing then...
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:04 am

crabcrouton wrote:
Kethion wrote:Paragraph one: I think Vanifae was commenting on white damage only, not excluding holy damage from the modifier as well.

Maybe. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Regardless, the assumption that X dps = X * Y tps just falls flat. Like my earlier post points out, ShoR has a high threat modifier component. Any time you have that, the ratios change (suddenly 1 holy dps =/= 1.9 tps, it now depends if it was 1 holy ShoR dps or not). ShoR is a primary ability we use too, not like AS or anything.

To say that DPS = Threat or "Low Seal damage < high melee damage" is entirely misleading to what the threat numbers are showing.
no.

They changed ShoR's "+Threat" to pure damage, it's the reason ShoR was scaling at roughly 300%bv-to-damage. Today ShoR is 100%bv + base value, no extra threat.

It's why they increased the damage from HotR and thunder clap for example. They wanted to move away from +threat and into +damage. Our only and absolute threat modifier is Righteous Fury.


Sheherezade wrote:
Majiben wrote:
Sheherezade wrote:I tested out SoC (is that the right one, heh?) last night in TK, and I kept seeing these really small one digit numbers...so is it still like you get a really small damage from hitting a fully stacked SoC target or did i have some kind of damage shield or something?

I noticed way too many buffs from what I'm used to having, including a lot that I haven't seen before! :)
You get a small boost while hitting a fully stacked SoV target. It's small though, on the order of 4-7 holy damage per swing.

yeah, that's about right, that's the numbers i was seeing then...

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Postby Vanifae » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:39 am

crabcrouton wrote:Right now threat is approaching ridiculous numbers, last I heard someone was pushing 10k bursts and 6k sustained. If the gap in raw numbers continue to grow, then it doesn't matter that melee damage continues to ramp up (as Vanifae points out) because holy threat (in this case SoV/Corr) ramps up faster.

One I was not incorrect, white damage when RF is running ahs a 1.43 modifier, sure the ratio of threat stays the same because we have no increased modifier besides the threat modifier to Holy damage but white damage is not useless it is typically going to be about 20-30% of your damage which is significant.

As far as Vengeance/Corruption they reduced the coefficients on the damage, sure it may seem underwhelming but in the long run this spell will scale better with Protection stats than Seal of Righteousness, based on the contribution of spell power and attack power coefficients. But ultimately what I am trying to get across to you is that overall damage output has increased and with the shift to pure damage and less increased threat abilities then it is working as intended. If anything it sounds like they want to make Hammer of the Righteous a more significant threat ability with the increase in damage that is coming in the next patch.

I would be surprised to hear from someone post-patch that their threat went down due to these changes.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:42 am

crabcrouton wrote:
Kethion wrote:Paragraph one: I think Vanifae was commenting on white damage only, not excluding holy damage from the modifier as well.

Maybe. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Regardless, the assumption that X dps = X * Y tps just falls flat. Like my earlier post points out, ShoR has a high threat modifier component. Any time you have that, the ratios change (suddenly 1 holy dps =/= 1.9 tps, it now depends if it was 1 holy ShoR dps or not). ShoR is a primary ability we use too, not like AS or anything.

To say that DPS = Threat or "Low Seal damage < high melee damage" is entirely misleading to what the threat numbers are showing.

The tooltip has not been adjusted for Shield of Righteousness, there is no increased threat modifier as far as I know.

I am sorry but DPS is TPS don't believe me spec Retribution switch on RF aura and watch your TPS sore into the heavens.
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Postby Zironic » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:02 am

Blizzard have said they want to remove all "high threat" modifiers because they didn't scale. Instead they just put more damage on the abilities, dps tanking FTW!
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Postby Pallypete » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:18 am

Kethion wrote:Partially correct. Every action you take while under the effect of righteous fury has a +43% threat modifier (as the "HAY I R TENKIN GUYZ" baked-in modifier). Holy damage has the +90% threat from RF in addition to this. In short: While under righteous fury, one point of white damage does 1.43 threat, and one point of holy damage does 2.717 threat.


Wow, I never saw anything before about that baked in threat modifier, was there a blizzard post on that somewhere? I heard about the DPSers having salv baked into their specs, but not about the tanks having extra baked in threat.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:11 am

In the earlier stages of beta, when they removed Salvation, they just stated they "baked in salvation in tanks threat".
Many thought it meant all DPS classes got a 30% threat reduction as baseline, but noone really knew what they meant until the in-game threat meter came out and found out that they just added salvation in the "tanking stances".
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:20 am

It's entirely possible that SoV/SoR and their judgements were nerfed a little too hard to make them so Ret pallys wouldn't use them. For instance, after 10 levels, 5 Talent points in Seals of the Pure, and a Glyph to increase judgement damage by 10%, a 5 stack JoV is still doing less damage in beta at level 80, than it was for me in 2.4.

For us, this isn't a huge concern because we got some other attacks that when taken in full, increase our DPS significantly. For Holy Pallys though, it could be a bit of an issue, they will get a shield slam too, but it's not going to hit for much. Their DPS from 70 to 80 isn't going to increase all that much from what I can tell.
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Postby mclem » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:53 am

Pallypete wrote:Wow, I never saw anything before about that baked in threat modifier, was there a blizzard post on that somewhere? I heard about the DPSers having salv baked into their specs, but not about the tanks having extra baked in threat.


It *is* the baked-in salv. Relatively speaking, you having 1.43x threat = everyone else having 30% less threat.
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Postby steadypal » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:55 am

wtf why cant blizz just buff it back up and just rework it to sor and sov can only be used with 1h equipped?


also, why cant blizz up the dmg from the full 5stack hits? just fold sor and sov together somehow to do almost sor dmg on a 5stack hit? doesnt have to be much more but c'mon 5stacks hitting for 1-10dmg crits? whats the point?
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