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judge of light still bugged?

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Postby Elsie » Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:53 pm

They'll probably change JoL to where it's not considered holy. However, removing JoL (and JoW) from a protection paladin's arsenal would be akin to removing the threat from sunder armor. It's a tool we have. We heal the raid some as we tank.

It's our relative benefit compared to a warrior's increased raid dps through sunder. A druid gains similar benefits through Leader of the Pack, Faerie Fire, and Mangle debuff. The Death knight, I presume, is in the same boat through FrostFury, Abominable Strength, Auras, or Ebon Plague.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:13 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Come on, its not uncontrollable.

Frankly, I find it handy as all hell...

Face it, in order to generate this extra threat, we lose out on a bit of damage, cant judge wisdom, etc...

Its a good tool...if I want my threat to be over the top, I judge light...if I want it to be lower I am judging wisdom or justice...


What if you want extra threat at Kalecgos? Bzzt, sorry, can't have it. Minimal raid damage to heal, and half the raid is in the other realm not proccing JoL.

What if you want tons of threat on the first twin, but not on the second? Bzzzt. Heal-threat, it gets split across both mobs.

This is what I mean by "uncontrollable" - the amount of TPS you get is controlled by the encounter, not the paladin. You can switch it on and off, but that's it. And you can't rely on it, or control the targets it effects. And someone is stuck with putting it up, which is an issue anytime there's a threat cap.
Io.Draco wrote:Uhm ye sry didn't realize you where talking of pre nerf JoL

But im curios do you have data of after the nerf to it on Felmyst? I did her today and I got nowhere near your numbers with JoL , so get your numbers straight
Yeah, we killed Felmyst twice this week, once pre-nerf, once post nerf!

...

JoL looks to have been halved. Will do 1500-2000 at Felmyst. Next week I'll just tank her myself if it hasn't been fixed.
Elsie wrote:They'll probably change JoL to where it's not considered holy. However, removing JoL (and JoW) from a protection paladin's arsenal would be akin to removing the threat from sunder armor. It's a tool we have. We heal the raid some as we tank.
It isn't a tool, it's an unforeseen side effect.

JoL / JoW are fine in terms of their effects. But assigning the threat to the caster in this case is a really poor mechanic. The change went in for PoM & Earthshield. This only heal one person. JoL heals the 15 DPS in-raid. And does 15 times as much threat as the "threat to healer" mechanic was supposed to deal with.
Elsie wrote:It's our relative benefit compared to a warrior's increased raid dps through sunder. A druid gains similar benefits through Leader of the Pack, Faerie Fire, and Mangle debuff. The Death knight, I presume, is in the same boat through FrostFury, Abominable Strength, Auras, or Ebon Plague.

None of those do significant threat, most are flat values applied at cast time.

Sunder Armor can be used as an obtuse example: What if the threat from the extra damage from Sunder Armor went to the person who did Sunder Armor instead of the person doing the extra DPS? And your warrior is DPS, not tanking. Or if the warlock who cast CoE got 10-13% of the entire raid's magic damage as threat? Stupid, eh?

JoL threat is even worse, because it's slip between every single mob.

JoL / JoW are nice tools, part of our overall package. But the need to do zero threat. And after that tune our DPS to give the right TPS.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:47 pm

okay, then reduce warrior threat by 10-20% since by your logic they shouldn't get the increased threat from doing more damage.

JoL is something you put up to get more threat and benefit the raid. They need to do threat. They current do too much.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:56 pm

That statement makes close to non sense, expecially considering JoL can become on raidwide-damage-heavy fight about 80% of our threat.

So, nerf our baseline threat by 80% to make up for a uncontrollable proc-based aggro? Please, let's be serious.

I did overaggro on RoS by just having JoL up. I was not even meleeing the boss, yet i was generating 3k TPS????
Does that make any sense to you? No. I shouldn't be punished for helping the raid.

JoL threat need to be removed or made like it was before (affecting the healed person rather than the debuffer).
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:25 am

Elsie wrote:removing JoL (and JoW) [threat] from a protection paladin's arsenal would be akin to removing the threat from sunder armor. It's a tool we have. We heal the raid some as we tank.


No, that's not a valid comparison at all. We've never had threat from judgement effects on the raid before, our threat is not balanced around it, the numbers haven't been calculated using it. Nobody's suggesting that we nerf the actual effects because they cause too much threat, even though that does seem to be the only thing that Blizzard has done about it.

We heal the raid some as we tank. They reduce the armor of the boss some as they tank. Neither bonus has anything to do with how they get there, let alone the threat they cause.
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Postby Kyrael » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:52 am

When I judge light on felmyst, and then have to sit back and do nothing at all, 0 dps, and still draw agro off the tank, something is wrong. haven't even tried RoS phase 2 yet.

wtb 0 threat on JoL.

Also, when tanks are asking for an ability they have to do less threat, something is wrong.
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Postby majiben » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:54 am

Kyrael wrote:When I judge light on felmyst, and then have to sit back and do nothing at all, 0 dps, and still draw agro off the tank, something is wrong. haven't even tried RoS phase 2 yet.

wtb 0 threat on JoL.

Also, when tanks are asking for an ability they have to do less threat, something is wrong.
Try turning off RF :-)
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Postby Worldie » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:54 am

Actually what is wrong with JoL isn't exactly the threat it generates, it's the fact you cannot control it.
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Postby Kyrael » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:05 am

Majiben wrote:
Kyrael wrote:When I judge light on felmyst, and then have to sit back and do nothing at all, 0 dps, and still draw agro off the tank, something is wrong. haven't even tried RoS phase 2 yet.

wtb 0 threat on JoL.

Also, when tanks are asking for an ability they have to do less threat, something is wrong.
Try turning off RF :-)


I did :wink:
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:13 am

Jol-Threat is as good as nothing really. It's, like said already, either absent or so obscenely OP that you don't want the ability to exist. I wonder why can't they just remove the threat from the heals? Maybe attribute the owner of the heals to the mob?


That would have a funny implication in AV: JoL and focus on <uglyface>, suddenly every aggroed npc from your faction turns ant beats <uglyface> too!
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Postby sherck » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:16 am

WoW...nice thread. When healing ZA last night, I was asked to Judge Light at the beginning of the raid by the Raid Leader and after the first 2 bosses, he kept asking me why I was a threat magnet and I could not answer him.

I usually Judge Wisdom and will do so in the future. I assume that there is not aggro generation on Wisdom returns?

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Postby Io.Draco » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:24 am

Actualy there is , not as high as light though :P
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Postby Morganim » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:41 am

Kyrael wrote:When I judge light on felmyst, and then have to sit back and do nothing at all, 0 dps, and still draw agro off the tank, something is wrong. haven't even tried RoS phase 2 yet.

wtb 0 threat on JoL.

Also, when tanks are asking for an ability they have to do less threat, something is wrong.


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Postby Morganim » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:41 am

Kyrael wrote:When I judge light on felmyst, and then have to sit back and do nothing at all, 0 dps, and still draw agro off the tank, something is wrong. haven't even tried RoS phase 2 yet.

wtb 0 threat on JoL.

Also, when tanks are asking for an ability they have to do less threat, something is wrong.


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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:56 am

Morganim wrote:
Kyrael wrote:When I judge light on felmyst, and then have to sit back and do nothing at all, 0 dps, and still draw agro off the tank, something is wrong. haven't even tried RoS phase 2 yet.

wtb 0 threat on JoL.

Also, when tanks are asking for an ability they have to do less threat, something is wrong.


use wisdom
So the holy /ret pally pull aggro with Light?

JoL's threat is the problem, so JoL's threat should be fixed. Not worked around.
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