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Frequently *Answered* Questions 3.0.2 & Wrath.

All things related to the expansion

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Postby knaughty » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:36 pm

Will be updated for release.

Feel free to make further suggestions, I'm working on an update on the assumption this is going to end up in General or Basic Training when WotLK gets nuked from orbit.

Meanwhile, there are some out -of-date bits, and the level 70 stuff is still in (for now)
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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Postby kurros » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:21 am

Knaughty wrote:Hard trash is hard. I don't think you're actually seen any?

We've had this chat before: Before 3.0, you only saw Tier-4 and a couple of bits of Tier-5, correct?

Black Temple trash and Sunwell trash, for progression guilds, were significant challenges at the time they were released.

Pre-nerf Sunwell, for guilds going in just after it was released, the trash was hard enough to required full consumables and 100% focus, or you wiped, and it was very unlikely you got through a robot or the six-pack pulls with zero deaths.


But if a talent helps on trash but not bosses, you view it as worthless?
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby majiben » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:39 am

kurros wrote:
Knaughty wrote:Stuff


But if a talent helps on trash but not bosses, you view it as worthless?
It's a well know fact that Knaughty doesn't find discussion on trash or OT positions to be meaningful. Many here disagree with that view point (I am one) but he has taken steps to limit that view from poisoning his FAQ. Seeing as he is allowed to exclude what he feels is not in needed or contrary to his views as long as the quality of the FAQ doesn't suffer. Now he doesn't intend for his guide to be the end all be all of Paladin tanking, rather he wrote it as if it was the only thing a new paladin would read before having to go out and tank and in that regard it's a very good guide.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:00 am

Majiben wrote:
kurros wrote:
Knaughty wrote:Stuff


But if a talent helps on trash but not bosses, you view it as worthless?
It's a well know fact that Knaughty doesn't find discussion on trash or OT positions to be meaningful. Many here disagree with that view point (I am one) but he has taken steps to limit that view from poisoning his FAQ. Seeing as he is allowed to exclude what he feels is not in needed or contrary to his views as long as the quality of the FAQ doesn't suffer. Now he doesn't intend for his guide to be the end all be all of Paladin tanking, rather he wrote it as if it was the only thing a new paladin would read before having to go out and tank and in that regard it's a very good guide.


I think its also important to remember that while trash can sometimes be hard, and in the case of sunwell trash - requiring both consumables and buffs to the teeth. Its still just trash and you should be able to survive without certain "trash-tanking" abilities.
You can, for example, use multiple tanks on trash but on most bosses you cannot use more than one at a time(exceptions exist) and therefore you get the most of your tank if he specs, and gears for bosstanking.
With that perspective talents and abilities that only get their full benefit on trashmobs are, in fact, useless.
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Postby kurros » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:40 am

mirkodeluxe wrote:
Majiben wrote:
kurros wrote:
But if a talent helps on trash but not bosses, you view it as worthless?
It's a well know fact that Knaughty doesn't find discussion on trash or OT positions to be meaningful. Many here disagree with that view point (I am one) but he has taken steps to limit that view from poisoning his FAQ. Seeing as he is allowed to exclude what he feels is not in needed or contrary to his views as long as the quality of the FAQ doesn't suffer. Now he doesn't intend for his guide to be the end all be all of Paladin tanking, rather he wrote it as if it was the only thing a new paladin would read before having to go out and tank and in that regard it's a very good guide.


I think its also important to remember that while trash can sometimes be hard, and in the case of sunwell trash - requiring both consumables and buffs to the teeth. Its still just trash and you should be able to survive without certain "trash-tanking" abilities.
You can, for example, use multiple tanks on trash but on most bosses you cannot use more than one at a time(exceptions exist) and therefore you get the most of your tank if he specs, and gears for bosstanking.
With that perspective talents and abilities that only get their full benefit on trashmobs are, in fact, useless.


Knaughty wrote:Pre-nerf Sunwell, for guilds going in just after it was released, the trash was hard enough to required full consumables and 100% focus, or you wiped, and it was very unlikely you got through a robot or the six-pack pulls with zero deaths.


I really don't understand the distinction. If trash is so hard that serious guilds wipe without 100% focus and consumables, how is that any different from bosses? Wiping is wiping, trash or boss it's the same repair bill. You can focus on single target boss fight talents, and wipe 5% more on trash, or you can focus on trash mob tanking talents, and wipe 5% more on bosses, what is the drawback of going with the trash tanking talents?

And with the gauntlet + boss style that blizzard likes to use, sometimes the trash is part of a boss fight- for example Heigan. Or the boss may spawn trash adds, Gluth is one(reportedly a major cockblock for groups without hunter traps and frost mages), KT for another. Being the hardest fights in Naxx, you don't think it's worth speccing "trash" talents to beat KT or Gluth?

edit: KT, not KJ :P
Last edited by kurros on Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Zironic » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:38 am

By the way, I'm unsure if the part of the guide where you quote me is still relevant since we've gotten some major nerfage since then (JoL, JoW, JoV and SoV) so my blues might not be able to tank tier 6 dps anymore.

I havn't been able to check though because I'm keeping my acc frozen until the WotlK release.

I really don't understand the distinction. If trash is so hard that serious guilds wipe without 100% focus and consumables, how is that any different from bosses? Wiping is wiping, trash or boss it's the same repair bill. You can focus on single target boss fight talents, and wipe 5% more on trash, or you can focus on trash mob tanking talents, and wipe 5% more on bosses, what is the drawback of going with the trash tanking talents?

And with the gauntlet + boss style that blizzard likes to use, sometimes the trash is part of a boss fight- for example Heigan. Or the boss may spawn trash adds, Gluth is one(reportedly a major cockblock for groups without hunter traps and frost mages), KJ for another. Being the hardest fights in Naxx, you don't think it's worth speccing "trash" talents to beat KJ or Gluth?


What exactly would the trash tanking talents be?
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:59 am

Kurros, Im not exactly sure that you know what youre talking about.

5% less damage taken, more threat or more dps on a boss is significant and both can and will be gamebreaking on bossfights in progression. Not on trash.
If there was a choice between trashtanking and bosstanking, then I would always go for the bosstanking abilities.. But the issue is moot as no such talents really exist.
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Postby kurros » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:50 pm

mirkodeluxe wrote:Kurros, Im not exactly sure that you know what youre talking about.

5% less damage taken, more threat or more dps on a boss is significant and both can and will be gamebreaking on bossfights in progression. Not on trash.


I never said anything about 5% less damage taken, threat, or anything of the sort. I was just tossing a number out saying, AS AN EXAMPLE, if X talent made you wipe 5% more often on boss but wipe 5% fewer times on trash, the net value of it for a raiding paladin would be just as high as a talent that did the reverse and made boss tanking slightly easier but trash harder.*

*Based on the post by Knaughty that said trash is serious, requires 100% focus full buffs etc.

mirkodeluxe wrote:If there was a choice between trashtanking and bosstanking, then I would always go for the bosstanking abilities.. But the issue is moot as no such talents really exist.


Pretty much agreed there. It's more of a philosophical difference than an actual one, because as you point you there aren't really many trash specific talents and most of them you are forced to take anyway.

I'm just bothered by the general attitude of some posters along the lines of "trash, nobody cares about trash just give me the best possible single target gear and talents", and then they turn around and talk about how trash is so hard that if you forget to buff Might on one DPS it might make the difference between succeeding and wiping. Rather absurd and contradictory. I prefer to take a more balanced approach, recognize that trash is important too, there is more to tanking than just single target bosses.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:53 pm

kurros wrote:
mirkodeluxe wrote:Kurros, Im not exactly sure that you know what youre talking about.

5% less damage taken, more threat or more dps on a boss is significant and both can and will be gamebreaking on bossfights in progression. Not on trash.


I never said anything about 5% less damage taken, threat, or anything of the sort. I was just tossing a number out saying, AS AN EXAMPLE, if X talent made you wipe 5% more often on boss but wipe 5% fewer times on trash, the net value of it for a raiding paladin would be just as high as a talent that did the reverse and made boss tanking slightly easier but trash harder.


Not in my opinion (and it's my FAQ).

Certain trash packs have been hard enough to require full buffs, full focus, and still kill a few people.

They're still not worth speccing for or stacking the raid for.

• Trash doesn't have enrage timers
• Trash packs get easier as you kill each mob
• The guild is there to kill the bosses - because they're the ones with loot.
• Trash packs die really fast - this make a massive difference.

Anyway, at this point I think you're just trolling the thread. Please stop.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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Postby kurros » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:12 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Not in my opinion (and it's my FAQ).

Anyway, at this point I think you're just trolling the thread. Please stop.


If anyone is trolling it is you in your FAQ with your "it's my FAQ so I can put anything I want in it" arguments.

• Trash doesn't have enrage timers


This is a useless argument. A few bosses have a real enrage timer, the vast majority have enrage timers that are trivial to meet and are only there to prevent silly undermanned attempts without dps.

• Trash packs get easier as you kill each mob

And bosses don't?

• The guild is there to kill the bosses - because they're the ones with loot.

If you fail to kill the trash, you can't even attempt the boss with the loot. Besides, trash does drop loot too.

• Trash packs die really fast - this make a massive difference.

A single trash pack might be a short fight, but most guilds spend just as much time clearing trash than they do fighting bosses. 1 hr of Sunwell trash before the first boss? Not to mention the bosses which include trash as part of the encounter- Gluth, KT- funny you totally ignored that part of my post.

But, whatever, it's your FAKO (frequently asked knaughty's opinion), no reason to spoil it by having accurate or correct information.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby majiben » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:35 pm

Knaughty wrote:Anyway, at this point I think you're just trolling the thread. Please stop.
THIS. You seem to be here not for the sake of the FAQ but for the flaming that is being incited. If you mean for the best intentions of the FAQ or any thread in general it is often better to let the conversation carry on without oyu until it settles down.

kurros wrote:If anyone is trolling it is you in your FAQ with your "it's my FAQ so I can put anything I want in it" arguments.

• Trash doesn't have enrage timers


This is a useless argument. A few bosses have a real enrage timer, the vast majority have enrage timers that are trivial to meet and are only there to prevent silly undermanned attempts without dps.
Live in SWP for a few months or fight the T5 endbosses pre 3.0 and say that. Heck even the 3rd and 4th bosses of MH has a nasty enrage of sorts. What knaughty was saying is you can do the trash a lesuirely as you would like so long as the CC holds out. That is how undergeared group do sunwell trash for the trash drops, bring a horde of mages.

kurros wrote:• Trash packs get easier as you kill each mob

And bosses don't?
Bosses for the most part don't wane contineously in str as you whittle away their HP, in fact they most often become harder (exceptions like solarion apply).

kurros wrote:• Trash packs die really fast - this make a massive difference.

A single trash pack might be a short fight, but most guilds spend just as much time clearing trash than they do fighting bosses. 1 hr of Sunwell trash before the first boss? Not to mention the bosses which include trash as part of the encounter- Gluth, KT- funny you totally ignored that part of my post.

But, whatever, it's your FAKO (frequently asked knaughty's opinion), no reason to spoil it by having accurate or correct information.
[/quote] His FAQ is not inaccurate and he a taken a lot of steps to make it more accessable to everyone. As far as I can tell you dislike that he does not give information on how to be a good trash tank because he feels it' contrary to the mission of the web site, does not take particular skill, and if you having trouble with trash you have bigger problems than your tank's boss spec.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:49 pm

I'd like to request that people stop feeding the troll.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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Postby kurros » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:54 pm

Knaughty wrote:I'd like to request that people stop feeding the troll.


Please. How many dozens of threads were locked because you got in arguments with other posters?

I get along fine with everyone else here, it's you who has the attitude problem.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm

This is a stickied FAQ, probably not the place for this "discussion". If you wish to continue it, please start up a new thread.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:56 pm

This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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