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Dual Spec Ghostcrawler post

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Postby Brand » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:00 am

Hiroko wrote:If you respec for a change of pace, to do dailies, 5 man or pvp then I feel you should be 'charged' in some way - the current way of paying for respecs seems to work.

If you respec between boss fights in the same raid instance because of different requirements in raid composition dictated by the encounter design then you have an argument for free on-the-fly respecs.

However
It is my opninion that Blizzard are picking the wrong path to rectify this issue. I would be much happier if they designed the raid instance so that it was expected that you finished the raid with the same people in the same specs that you started with. Designing an instance that requires, say, 4 tanks and 7 healers on one fight and then 1 tank and 10 healers on the next is a failure in design in my eyes, and Blizzard are taking the easy way out by allowing dual specs.

What will be next? tri-specs so we can be healer one fight, tank the next and dps the 3rd?


Not every respec I do is a "change of pace", and if so wouldn't be doing so at least 2-3 times a week if not more. But it is nice to get away from grinding as Prot for a bit to do stuff as Ret for awhile. And honestly, as a class that can spec for three different roles, is it such a bad thing to be able to experience all sides of the class without having to constantly be subjected to a fee? Granted that was their intention initially but now with Dual Specs coming that's 2/3 of the class (or multiple specs of the same role) that you don't have to worry about.

As for a charge, I think having to carry around a complete set for a different spec will be taxing enough to go with different permutations of tanking gear that most (myself included) seem to run around with based on what kind of tanking scenario arises. Granted for us, seeing as we have quite a bit of Str on our gear, we could probably just bring a 2h and then put that on while in our tanking gear while swapping to a Ret spec and put out serviceable DPS in a raid scenario. Not ideal, but it's something they may be taking into consideration when alleviating a fee from swapping specs on the fly.
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Postby Renkin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:40 am

50g probably won't be much in wotlk anyways.
But I am still looking forward to this.
I always used a different character to pvp as i hate to farm for respeccs.
This will allow me to pve and pvp on my pally!
I tried Ret last night in kara and it was fun.. still i enjoy tanking in pve the most. I love pvp too so this will be the best change for having both with 1 character.
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Postby Levantine » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:51 am

Brand wrote:
Hiroko wrote:If you respec for a change of pace, to do dailies, 5 man or pvp then I feel you should be 'charged' in some way - the current way of paying for respecs seems to work.

If you respec between boss fights in the same raid instance because of different requirements in raid composition dictated by the encounter design then you have an argument for free on-the-fly respecs.

However
It is my opninion that Blizzard are picking the wrong path to rectify this issue. I would be much happier if they designed the raid instance so that it was expected that you finished the raid with the same people in the same specs that you started with. Designing an instance that requires, say, 4 tanks and 7 healers on one fight and then 1 tank and 10 healers on the next is a failure in design in my eyes, and Blizzard are taking the easy way out by allowing dual specs.

What will be next? tri-specs so we can be healer one fight, tank the next and dps the 3rd?


Not every respec I do is a "change of pace", and if so wouldn't be doing so at least 2-3 times a week if not more. But it is nice to get away from grinding as Prot for a bit to do stuff as Ret for awhile. And honestly, as a class that can spec for three different roles, is it such a bad thing to be able to experience all sides of the class without having to constantly be subjected to a fee? Granted that was their intention initially but now with Dual Specs coming that's 2/3 of the class (or multiple specs of the same role) that you don't have to worry about.

As for a charge, I think having to carry around a complete set for a different spec will be taxing enough to go with different permutations of tanking gear that most (myself included) seem to run around with based on what kind of tanking scenario arises. Granted for us, seeing as we have quite a bit of Str on our gear, we could probably just bring a 2h and then put that on while in our tanking gear while swapping to a Ret spec and put out serviceable DPS in a raid scenario. Not ideal, but it's something they may be taking into consideration when alleviating a fee from swapping specs on the fly.


As a Holy Priest, all I can say is blow me. I'm going to look forward to being able to grind in Wrath, thankyouverymuch. (and before you say but you still have spellpower fueled spells, Speccind shadow MORE THAN DOUBLES my dps)
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Postby Kuripari » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:33 am

I think this is really awesome, and look forward to being able to switch around from time to time, but I'm kinda interested to see how things shape out.. I mean.. is LFG gonna become, "Holy/Prot Pally LFG for _______"?

And what about drops?

Hey can I roll too, I need it for my dual/off spec. Or what about the prot pally that rolls ret to get a group.. I suppose he could roll on ret drops, but what if what he really needs are the tank pieces?

I'm also cognizant that it's a sort of worst case scenario type of view, and realize it may all just shake out okay.. and the LFG thing will probably be more of a boon than anything. But.. oh man... could pugs get horrible! :p

[edit] for typos... sorry.
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:44 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Splug wrote:Drums have actually been reworked in the last build. The tooltip now includes a line to the tune of, "Does not effect players level 80 or above."

-Splug


Is that because there are going to be new drums to make, or they just don't want that mechanic anymore?
While there was a new set of drums at 80, I've heard they were taken out recently and replaced with self-only bracer and leg enchants as the leatherworking perk. I have not confirmed that, but I have seen stats for the self-only bracer/leg armor.

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Postby Somrael » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:17 am

Hey can I roll too, I need it for my dual/off spec. Or what about the prot pally that rolls ret to get a group.. I suppose he could roll on ret drops, but what if what he really needs are the tank pieces?


Lol, it happens anyway, now people will actually be able to justify it more easily. Hopefully with Blizzard's trend towards gear consolidation this will be more of a moot point, since there won't be such a crazy array of drops.

For what it's worth, I love this idea. As a casual player, I'm stoked about being able to tank for my guild and friends, and PvP Ret when solo. This will also be fantastic for healers I think (see above), and even pure DPS; my friend plays a phenomenal Survival spec hunter who's a CC master in instances, but really likes BM for Battlegrounds. This is only a positive move on Blizzard's part.
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Postby fafhrd » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:27 am

Definitely need a stable master inside instances now.
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Postby Angella » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:29 am

Hiroko wrote:What will be next? tri-specs so we can be healer one fight, tank the next and dps the 3rd?



That would actually be pretty cool. Talk about the ultimate utility class.
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:37 am

Kuripari wrote:And what about drops?

Hey can I roll too, I need it for my dual/off spec. Or what about the prot pally that rolls ret to get a group.. I suppose he could roll on ret drops, but what if what he really needs are the tank pieces?


Mainspec > offspec > if-i-have-to spec seems to work well currently, I don't see that changing. (For me, that's prot>ret>healing)

Mainly though, it's "Be polite to your groupmates". When entering a group, say "I'm really after ___, but I'd like to roll on ___ if it drops, as that's the spec I use when I'm soloing/healing/tanking." I'll expect to be rolling Need on anything that's an upgrade, frankly, and I expect the ret/arms/dps-DKs in my groups to be rolling on tanking gear, if that's something they want to do.

Note that there's a difference between "I want X" and "I could use X since Y is my offspec". I'd not roll on a healing upgrade for someone, for example, if they're a primary healer.

Blah Blah blah: If it's an upgrade you'll use, roll need. I won't be grouping with you again anyways, so I don't really care if you beat me on the roll. Don't pass me Awesome Healing Gear just because you already got one.
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Postby Spectrum » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:44 am

I'm still against this sort of thing because it removes some of the individuality of characters.

Having a spec that is hard to change means that you have to plan ahead and chose carefully what you want to do, perhaps being sub-optimal at two things so you can be decent at both. Having two specs makes it easier for everyone to just grab the "best spec" and it will reduce individuality.

The reason people feel like this is necessary now in terms of raids is because you CAN respec. If there were a 20-hour cooldown on respecs then raids would plan to finish with the same specs they started with for the most part.

I guess I feel that part of the game is making decisions that involve tradeoffs. You have to sacrifice some things to get others. Having two specs just removes another tradeoff from the game and makes it more homogenized and boring to me.
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Postby Vioarr » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:53 am

Somrael wrote:
Hey can I roll too, I need it for my dual/off spec. Or what about the prot pally that rolls ret to get a group.. I suppose he could roll on ret drops, but what if what he really needs are the tank pieces?


Lol, it happens anyway, now people will actually be able to justify it more easily. Hopefully with Blizzard's trend towards gear consolidation this will be more of a moot point, since there won't be such a crazy array of drops.

For what it's worth, I love this idea. As a casual player, I'm stoked about being able to tank for my guild and friends, and PvP Ret when solo. This will also be fantastic for healers I think (see above), and even pure DPS; my friend plays a phenomenal Survival spec hunter who's a CC master in instances, but really likes BM for Battlegrounds. This is only a positive move on Blizzard's part.


Guilds already handle the main/offspec thing. Obviously if you're a tankadin that specced into Ret or Holy for a fight and a prot Paladin piece drops, it would be expected that they should get it. Just because they are changing their spec to something else (In an attempt to be more beneficial to the raid group) shouldn't preclude them from getting items on their main spec. The same thing goes for offspec.

I like the idea of being able to respec; I think it's going to bring a lot of versatility to the game. Keep in mind that we don't even know fully what kind of raids we're looking at in WoTLK.
Last edited by Vioarr on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Somrael » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:57 am

I don't think that this will detract overly much from that. Ret/Prot seems to be common, and my Holy friend is looking at Holy/Shockadin; gear is still going to be a concern for many people (particularly casual), and I'd bet that you're going to find people having a main spec and an off-spec that can accomodate the gear that they already have. And since the system is already in place to allow this, it's not a radical change, just an economical one.
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Postby EvilNuff » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:19 pm

The thing that worries me about this is the pure dps classes. They really don't get the same benefit out of this. And honestly if you're forming a pug raid with one slot left for dps and you see a Rogue and Pally both looking, they have comparable gear when you armory them...you'll take the pally 100% of the time and it won't even be a question. Because he'll have a tank or heal offspec this literally makes pure dps classes 2nd class citizens. I literally know zero people with Rogues as mains who plan to keep a Rogue as main at 80.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:21 pm

fafhrd wrote:Definitely need a stable master inside instances now.
And a mailbox.
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:31 pm

EvilNuff wrote:The thing that worries me about this is the pure dps classes. They really don't get the same benefit out of this. And honestly if you're forming a pug raid with one slot left for dps and you see a Rogue and Pally both looking, they have comparable gear when you armory them...you'll take the pally 100% of the time and it won't even be a question. Because he'll have a tank or heal offspec this literally makes pure dps classes 2nd class citizens. I literally know zero people with Rogues as mains who plan to keep a Rogue as main at 80.
Some people would rather have security knowing they'll always be in the role they want rather than having to argue and justify playing that role when the group pressures them to respec. There's also a greater strain on equipment if you're going to bring someone who has to equip two to three specs (or on the other side, a limited effectiveness due to gear later if you do not allow them to take off-spec gear).

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