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Dual Spec Ghostcrawler post

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Dual Spec Ghostcrawler post

Postby Dianora » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:07 pm

Here's the blue post regarding what DEV is trying to achieve with Dual Spec:

Ghostcrawler wrote:Our feeling is that any kind of cooldown just ends up punishing you for not being super organized, when the idea is to give you *more* flexibility.

Hey, can you provide the debuff in the boss this time?
You sure? Okay, let me switch.
No wait -- I think we have someone else coming.
Oh noes! Too late! Now I have to wait an hour.

Hey, want to go do BGs until our heroic healer gets here?
Okay, let me switch specs. Done.
Oh look, the healer got here early. We can go do that run now.
Uh... I'm in PvP mode now. Sorry.

Remember that the actual talent swapping isn't even the biggest part of the feature. Anyone with a little patience and a warlock can already hearth, respec and get resummoned. Cutting-edge guilds do it every fight. What we really want to offer is a way to remember what buttons you have on your bar for example.

I understand the concern coming from the pure dps classes. But those guys benefit an awful lot from a system like this too. Since dps is your primary concern most of the time, this gives you a way to have say a trash spec and a boss spec, or a cc spec and pewpew spec without hurting your performance on either. Most pure dps classes will still have more PvP vs. PvE builds too, and this lets you participate in both without jumping through a few hoops at the trainer.

Some threads have also pointed out the loss of gold moving out of the system, but really even at max cost, the amount spent on respecs wasn't much. We haven't inflated it to keep up with the rest of the economy for a couple of expansions.

We'll let you know more when we have more details worked out.


Ghostcrawler wrote:As a few people have pointed out, hardcore raiding guilds already respec in between bosses. All it takes is a little bit of patience, gold and maybe a warlock. The new feature just takes some of the busy work out of it by remembering say what spell you had on button 2 or button 3.

What the new feature really is supposed to do is let you change your mind. Oh, I was going to PvP tonight but now my buddies want to do Naxx 10 instead. I can flip on the fly instead of having to run back to Org or IF to respec and get summoned.

Very skilled or "into it" dps players absolutely can maximize their trash or boss dps through their spec. In fact, you hear a lot that certain talents aren't good for bosses because they do things like improve your down time, AE or survivability. But all of those things can be great for fast clears. Players also sometimes say (silly) things like how they only care about how they perform on a boss. But if you want to do something like the LK equivalent of a ZA fast clear for the bear mount, you need to be fast across the board, not just on the 4 bosses. Players wipe on trash too.

We're not going to make crazy fights where we expect the entire raid to respec into something weird. That was even asked at Blizzcon and the guy in charge of all of the boss design said simply "No" in reply. If we can't assume you have a warrior or druid tanking, then we can't assume you have a mage with an obscure talent build or 12 healers or something else abnormal.

Having to run to town to respec all the time between two common specs was a burden, just like pots and drums were a burden. Very few players enjoyed having to farm consumables for their raid night. (Though to be fair, some did). Players may have enjoyed the advatantage those consumables might have given them, but of course they forget that the encounters were designed around the expectation that the group was chain potting and doing drum rotations. The encounters should be of similar difficulty, with the major change being that you don't have to farm (as much).

Likewise, I understand that some players like having to commit to a talent spec at least for the night. Those players may feel that this is a "catering to the casuals" decision, but it's one we think is right for the game. The different needs, for example, of PvE and PvP combat were putting a lot of constraints on the design of talent trees. Every talent needed to be very useful in both modes, which also tended to make them overbudget. That's not the only reason for the feature, but it's still a good one.

We won't let you change specs within an Arena or BG, nor will we let you do it in combat of any kind. When the feature is fleshed out more, we'll let you know more details.
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Postby ScribeShanky » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:16 pm

Thanks for the update, Dia.
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Re: Dual Spec Ghostcrawler post

Postby Bk992004 » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:30 pm

Dianora wrote:Here's the blue post regarding what DEV is trying to achieve with Dual Spec:

Ghostcrawler wrote:just like pots and drums were a burden... with the major change being that you don't have to farm (as much).



What is this in reference to? It's written as if they got rid of raid buff potions and such, but I have a hard time seeing them being removed completely. This part of the post doesn't offer enough context for clarity so I'm assuming it's assumed people in the test realm will know what it means...
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Re: Dual Spec Ghostcrawler post

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:32 pm

Bk992004 wrote:
Dianora wrote:Here's the blue post regarding what DEV is trying to achieve with Dual Spec:

Ghostcrawler wrote:just like pots and drums were a burden... with the major change being that you don't have to farm (as much).



What is this in reference to? It's written as if they got rid of raid buff potions and such, but I have a hard time seeing them being removed completely. This part of the post doesn't offer enough context for clarity so I'm assuming it's assumed people in the test realm will know what it means...


They mostly got rid of them. Using drums gives you a debuff now so you can't chain them. Potions now have a 1 minute cooldown, but that cooldown won't start until you are out of combat, so you can use one right before combat and then one during combat, but that's it.
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Re: Dual Spec Ghostcrawler post

Postby Bk992004 » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:34 pm

Fridmarr wrote:They mostly got rid of them. Using drums gives you a debuff now so you can't chain them. Potions now have a 1 minute cooldown, but that cooldown won't start until you are out of combat, so you can use one right before combat and then one during combat, but that's it.



Wow, that's crazy... heal/mana pots, too, or just buff pots that do resistances and such?
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Re: Dual Spec Ghostcrawler post

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:36 pm

Bk992004 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:They mostly got rid of them. Using drums gives you a debuff now so you can't chain them. Potions now have a 1 minute cooldown, but that cooldown won't start until you are out of combat, so you can use one right before combat and then one during combat, but that's it.



Wow, that's crazy... heal/mana pots, too, or just buff pots that do resistances and such?


All potions as far as I know. Flasks and Elixirs are unchanged.
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:43 pm

Drums have actually been reworked in the last build. The tooltip now includes a line to the tune of, "Does not effect players level 80 or above."

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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:45 pm

Splug wrote:Drums have actually been reworked in the last build. The tooltip now includes a line to the tune of, "Does not effect players level 80 or above."

-Splug


Is that because there are going to be new drums to make, or they just don't want that mechanic anymore?
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Postby Joanadark » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:53 pm

Thats because there are level 80 drums you use instead.
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Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:03 pm

Speaking as someone who did respec up to four times a night just for raiding, this is awesome.

Really looking forward to it.
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Postby Brand » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:54 am

I think this will be pretty sweet given that it not only adds to raid flexibility, but also allows you to have a nice change of pace. I know there's times I spec Ret just to do dailies or run a 5-man occasionally just to change things up. Totally looking forward to this.
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Postby Harlequina » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:04 am

Brand wrote:I think this will be pretty sweet given that it not only adds to raid flexibility, but also allows you to have a nice change of pace. I know there's times I spec Ret just to do dailies or run a 5-man occasionally just to change things up. Totally looking forward to this.
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Postby Hiroko » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:18 am

If you respec for a change of pace, to do dailies, 5 man or pvp then I feel you should be 'charged' in some way - the current way of paying for respecs seems to work.

If you respec between boss fights in the same raid instance because of different requirements in raid composition dictated by the encounter design then you have an argument for free on-the-fly respecs.

However
It is my opninion that Blizzard are picking the wrong path to rectify this issue. I would be much happier if they designed the raid instance so that it was expected that you finished the raid with the same people in the same specs that you started with. Designing an instance that requires, say, 4 tanks and 7 healers on one fight and then 1 tank and 10 healers on the next is a failure in design in my eyes, and Blizzard are taking the easy way out by allowing dual specs.

What will be next? tri-specs so we can be healer one fight, tank the next and dps the 3rd?
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Postby Briana » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:22 am

Sorry, but by allowing this it only makes for a much better game experience over all for the majority of players.

It also allows Blizzard much more flexibility in raid and dungeon design.

Putting restrictions on it makes absolutely no sense, at least the ones people are recommending.

Fortunately for us, Blizzard seems to be on the side of the majority of players on this issue.
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Postby Vioarr » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:49 am

Hiroko wrote:If you respec for a change of pace, to do dailies, 5 man or pvp then I feel you should be 'charged' in some way - the current way of paying for respecs seems to work.

If you respec between boss fights in the same raid instance because of different requirements in raid composition dictated by the encounter design then you have an argument for free on-the-fly respecs.

However
It is my opninion that Blizzard are picking the wrong path to rectify this issue. I would be much happier if they designed the raid instance so that it was expected that you finished the raid with the same people in the same specs that you started with. Designing an instance that requires, say, 4 tanks and 7 healers on one fight and then 1 tank and 10 healers on the next is a failure in design in my eyes, and Blizzard are taking the easy way out by allowing dual specs.

What will be next? tri-specs so we can be healer one fight, tank the next and dps the 3rd?


You don't sound like you respec much. Paying 50 gold 3-4 times a night just because of boss or raid mechanics can add up after a while. I've done it before and if this change never came around the general public would deal with it and chalk it up to another "endgame expense". But because the change is here it's nothing that people should complain about.

I can't stand being a prot paladin on a PVP server and have to deal with Ally trying to kill me every 5 seconds. Now with this change if I want to go Ret and have a chance when doing Dailies or whatever, I have one.
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