Single Target Taunt Mechanic

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Postby vschiano2008 » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:47 pm

Origon wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Adding it to JoJ wouldn't be ideal, but it'd be better than what we have now


If it was JoJ only, wouldn't that be pretty much ideal? since its not used as part of our regular threat rotation, isn't used by us on bosses when not tanking, taunt will have no effect in pvp (where its used the most probably). The only problem i can see would be when you want to snare mobs while not actually tanking them or prevent them from fleeing (but even in a 10man there would be other classes for that)


i dont know about you, but i i judge basically as soon as it comes up, if i haven't messed up my GCD's or my rotation.

that would render this useless. if i just judged, i'd have to wait 8 seconds to taunt? nty.
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Postby aardvark » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:56 pm

vschiano2008 wrote:i dont know about you, but i i judge basically as soon as it comes up, if i haven't messed up my GCD's or my rotation.

that would render this useless. if i just judged, i'd have to wait 8 seconds to taunt? nty.


Well you could just use RD at that point...

Atleast i'm presuming that, in the encounters that absolutely require you to have a single target taunt, said taunt timing isn't twitchy enough not to get a 9 second heads up on it, and thus you could hold using judgement for a sec or two 'till you need it for the taunt.

So we'd go from having an useless judgement in pve, to a "useless except in the fights where you -have to- use it even though it's inconvenient to save yourself a bigger hassle" -judgement, yes?

Or has someone figured a worthwhile use for JoJ in pve and i've just missed it?
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Postby Proudfoot » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:27 am

fuzzygeek wrote:Adding it to JoJ wouldn't be ideal, but it'd be better than what we have now


I agree, adding it to JoJ wouldn't be great. As someone said before judgement is part of our rotation already and if just finished judging you wouldn't have your much needed taunt available.

Adding an interupt to JoJ would be a great change... but wouldn't match all other classes interupt abilities. Blizzard has changed all interupts to deal no damage and most have been removed from the GCD. Shaman were even given a new spell called "wind shock" that just interupts and nothing else. This might be a case for paladins to get a seperate judgement off the GCD to interupt with no damage which is much needed for Ret.
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Postby aardvark » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:11 am

Proudfoot wrote:I agree, adding it to JoJ wouldn't be great. ........ if just finished judging you wouldn't have your much needed taunt available.


I don't get this, unless for some reason rd was cut when adding us a single taunt, you'd still have that to use if your judgement was on c/d. So the much needed taunt would still be there :)

Or was i mistaken in my earlier post and you do need to be able to do a single target taunt on the drop of a hat with no advance warning in a "gimmic" fight?
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:04 am

aardvark wrote:Or was i mistaken in my earlier post and you do need to be able to do a single target taunt on the drop of a hat with no advance warning in a "gimmic" fight?


Pretty much this.

We don't know if there'll be random tank switching fights yet, where we have to taunt one guy out of nowhere, but there are places in the game already where a single-target taunt is almost a necessity.
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Postby aardvark » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:11 am

Obrimos wrote:
aardvark wrote:Or was i mistaken in my earlier post and you do need to be able to do a single target taunt on the drop of a hat with no advance warning in a "gimmic" fight?


Pretty much this.

We don't know if there'll be random tank switching fights yet, where we have to taunt one guy out of nowhere, but there are places in the game already where a single-target taunt is almost a necessity.



What you just said was "Yes, we need to be able to taunt on the drop of the hat" (which is what i was asking) and "but we don't know if we need to do it out of nowhere" :roll:

I wasn't questioning wether we need a stt or not, I've understood and agree that single target taunt is occasionally necessary, i was just asking if we need to be able to do it without advance warning(in this case, atleast 9 seconds), and if not, adding single target taunt to the judgement of justice would work out just fine, yes? :?

Might not be ideal, but nowhere as broken as some ppl suggest. :)

Unless ofc we -do- need to stt without 9s warning, at which point this whole post is moot ;)



On a sidenote, i apparently like ending my lines with a smilie :shock:
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Postby Obrimos » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:14 am

aardvark wrote:
Obrimos wrote:
aardvark wrote:Or was i mistaken in my earlier post and you do need to be able to do a single target taunt on the drop of a hat with no advance warning in a "gimmic" fight?


Pretty much this.

We don't know if there'll be random tank switching fights yet, where we have to taunt one guy out of nowhere, but there are places in the game already where a single-target taunt is almost a necessity.



What you just said was "Yes, we need to be able to taunt on the drop of the hat" (which is what i was asking) and "but we don't know if we need to do it out of nowhere" :roll:

I wasn't questioning wether we need a stt or not, I've understood and agree that single target taunt is occasionally necessary, i was just asking if we need to be able to do it without advance warning(in this case, atleast 9 seconds), and if not, adding single target taunt to the judgement of justice would work out just fine, yes? :?

Might not be ideal, but nowhere as broken as some ppl suggest. :)

Unless ofc we -do- need to stt without 9s warning, at which point this whole post is moot ;)



On a sidenote, i apparently like ending my lines with a smilie :shock:



I said that we don't know if we'll have fights where we have to taunt out of nowhere, but we already do have fights where it is required. That is, you don't always have advanced warning of when it's going to happen, especially not 9 seconds. Five seconds is a long time in some fights, let alone 9.

Given that single-target taunts are more plentiful, and every other tank as two taunts or fixate effects, Blizzard probably won't be giving much warning on some fights. Something like the Ogre from SH would be a nightmare if you had just Judged.
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Postby aardvark » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:15 am

Obrimos wrote: Something like the Ogre from SH would be a nightmare if you had just Judged.


Okay so back to my other point then, is the ogre from SH a nightmare now? Well, maybe a bit ^_^ but even though we don't have a sigle target taunt, we can do it without too much problems. How would that change with getting a taunt to JoJ ? :)

I can think of several reasons why getting the stt to joj would be less than optimal, but not really any why it would be -bad- :?

Or are you thinking from the pov that stt would become our primary taunt? In that case i can see your point, but i'd consider RD to be my main taunt, and the stt for the gimmic fights that require it :)
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Postby Obrimos » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:26 pm

aardvark wrote:
Obrimos wrote: Something like the Ogre from SH would be a nightmare if you had just Judged.


Okay so back to my other point then, is the ogre from SH a nightmare now? Well, maybe a bit ^_^ but even though we don't have a sigle target taunt, we can do it without too much problems. How would that change with getting a taunt to JoJ ? :)


It gets (slightly) easier with JoJ having a Fixate or Taunt effect. Because the SH ogre can drop aggro randomly (ie, you hit him for a while then he switches to someone else, then you taunt him back and try to hold him again) my taunt sees more use there than anywhere else. If you had just Judged and you had taunted a second ago and he drops again (which I've seen happen there, but I haven't seen this kind of mechanic outside of SH), it can be disasterous, at least for one member of the party.

If a boss never requires taunting that often, a reliable backup taunt isn't as necessary as some of us talk about it being. It would still be nice to have a STT for aggro tag fights like 4H, though.
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Postby aardvark » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:06 pm

Obrimos wrote:If you had just Judged and you had taunted a second ago and he drops again (which I've seen happen there, but I haven't seen this kind of mechanic outside of SH), it can be disasterous, at least for one member of the party.


Yeah, but like you said, it get slightly easier and not harder if you have a taunt in a judgement. If you just judged, taunted and then have to taunt again, it does nothing, but if you taunted at say 5s of judgement g/d left, you'd have only 2s to wait for your next taunt opportunity, instead of 7 after the rd fixate effect ends. :)

If a boss never requires taunting that often, a reliable backup taunt isn't as necessary as some of us talk about it being. It would still be nice to have a STT for aggro tag fights like 4H, though.


Point, if one is looking for a reliable back up taunt, the judgement thingy wouldn't be very good.
I was just thinking this as "skill we -need- to tank certain gimmic fights properly", ie. 4H, not for convenience in fights, though it'd be nice to have imo too :) (despite the fact that i don't really have space for more skills on my bars ^_^ )

I'd also imagine pitching and idea to Blizz with the grounds "we need this capability and this idea wouldn't totally suck tho it's not great either" is gonna be easier to get done than "we need this capability, and we don't wanna be inconvenienced for it". ;)

Btw, i came up with a reason why it would be bad...
Blizz implements the idea, considers the matter "fixed" and then proceeds to make tons of fights like the ogre in SH :D
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Postby 2ndNin » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:13 am

Even if they added a taunt to Justice, and people worry about it being used for other stuff, you need to think its not actually "do I need to taunt in the next 9s", its "do I need to taunt in the next 9s, and Righteous Defense isn't appropriate in this situation".

RD should still be our main taunt, judgement would be the backup taunt for the Paladin class.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:26 am

Ghostcrawler wrote:Have you tried those encounters in beta? They work differently from the 40-player versions. Gothik isn't an issue at all. The Four Horsemen could be an issue if you had two paladins tanking, though even in that case a warrior could taunt long enough to move the two apart and then have the paladin tank again.

In any case, I believe I said at Blizzcon that we were going to add a glyph to let Righteous Defense only work on one target (and add some secondary bonus since the single-target thing is technically a penalty).
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=12197379738&sid=2000&pageNo=2#26

So having to have another warrior/druid/dk taunt for us does qualify as "not needlessly risky and complicated" for them. Guess you gotta suck it up.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:58 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
Ghostcrawler wrote:Have you tried those encounters in beta? They work differently from the 40-player versions. Gothik isn't an issue at all. The Four Horsemen could be an issue if you had two paladins tanking, though even in that case a warrior could taunt long enough to move the two apart and then have the paladin tank again.

In any case, I believe I said at Blizzcon that we were going to add a glyph to let Righteous Defense only work on one target (and add some secondary bonus since the single-target thing is technically a penalty).
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=12197379738&sid=2000&pageNo=2#26

So having to have another warrior/druid/dk taunt for us does qualify as "not needlessly risky and complicated" for them. Guess you gotta suck it up.


I dont like relying on another tankclass to compensate for my deficiencies. That said - Naxx is old content and During BC I have rarely, if ever, really needed a single target taunt. If they dont design encounters to require single target taunts this will effectively be a non-issue. I wouldnt mind having one, but I would much rather get a better interrupt for PvE or a permanent RF.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:24 pm

mirkodeluxe wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:
Ghostcrawler wrote:Have you tried those encounters in beta? They work differently from the 40-player versions. Gothik isn't an issue at all. The Four Horsemen could be an issue if you had two paladins tanking, though even in that case a warrior could taunt long enough to move the two apart and then have the paladin tank again.

In any case, I believe I said at Blizzcon that we were going to add a glyph to let Righteous Defense only work on one target (and add some secondary bonus since the single-target thing is technically a penalty).
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=12197379738&sid=2000&pageNo=2#26

So having to have another warrior/druid/dk taunt for us does qualify as "not needlessly risky and complicated" for them. Guess you gotta suck it up.


I dont like relying on another tankclass to compensate for my deficiencies. That said - Naxx is old content and During BC I have rarely, if ever, really needed a single target taunt. If they dont design encounters to require single target taunts this will effectively be a non-issue. I wouldnt mind having one, but I would much rather get a better interrupt for PvE or a permanent RF.


You can't discount Naxx anymore than you could have discounted Kara and SSC when TBC first shipped. Besides that, the single target thing is only part of the problem, a bigger problem is the target of target mechanic that causes it to fail too often.

Worse, GC's answer is completely contradictory with other comments he's made about tanking and having the necessary skills. He ackoweldges that we don't, but gives us a work around. I have no idea what the hell he's talking about with Gothik, I don't think he even had a clue what the problem actually is.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:59 pm

I don't want 2 MAJOR Glyphs...for one skill to work properly. Work the single-target function into the current RD Glyph...*BAM*...penalty + benefit.
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