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10 Man Raiding wotlk

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10 Man Raiding wotlk

Postby Mark » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:41 pm

I have both a 70 warrior and a paladin. We are starting a 10 man raiding group for wotlk and most likely, I will be the main tank. I am wondering which of the two classes would be more optimal for the group.

I know this topic has been discussed before for 25 man raids where it is assumed that you get all the buffs but this is not the case for 10 mans.

We have feral, resto druids and a holy pally (will spec into kings if needed) (no dps warrior) so we have some of the buffs/debuffs covered regardless of the decision.

Warrior (Advantage):
- Demo and Commanding shout (Even more HP)
- Better AoE Migitation
- More options versus casters
- Better scaling (?) (w/ critical block)
- More oh sh*t options

Paladins (Advantages):
- Extra pally buff (Sanc for tanks + Might/Wisdom) (This is pretty huge)
- Better single target (i.e. Boss) migitation with BoS (Who would have thought?)

It's so close right now for me, am I missing anything? I am a min/max-er so I would really like to play the class that is the most capable of MTing. In 25 mans, it would seem that warriors are slightly better but with BoS being so powerful, it would be best for the raid if I used my pally tank.
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Postby Orms » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:53 pm

I think people arent giving enough credit to stuff like auras, seal/judgement (especially SoLight), argent defender, and sacred shield. Also most are are over valueing some of the warrior abilities.

Also, blocking every single attack has real value that goes beyond the numbers (which are close) and the "better AOE mitigation" is argueable, but the bottom line is most AOE packs are pretty much a joke.

Lay on hands is also an oh snap button, though not as useful as last stand IMO it's still very handy. Again on argent defender, it works very well with divine protection for like an 80% damage reduction when you need it most.

IMO the only 2 real advantages warriors have are better ways to handle spellcasters, most taunts, and demo shout.
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Postby Songblade » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:55 pm

Orms wrote:I think people arent giving enough credit to stuff like auras, seal/judgement (especially SoLight), argent defender, and sacred shield. Also most are are over valueing some of the warrior abilities.

Also, blocking every single attack has real value that goes beyond the numbers (which are close) and the "better AOE mitigation" is argueable, but the bottom line is most AOE packs are pretty much a joke.

Lay on hands is also an oh snap button, though not as useful as last stand IMO it's still very handy. Again on argent defender, it works very well with divine protection for like an 80% damage reduction when you need it most.

IMO the only 2 real advantages warriors have are better ways to handle spellcasters, most taunts, and demo shout.


Actually Ardent Defender + Divine Protection is a 65% damage reduction, remember that math using percentages is multiplicative, not additive.

Also, Lay on Hands is quite a bit better than Last Stand actually, because they are both only really useful for getting health back to take that next hit while you're low on health, but Lay on Hands gives you 100% of your health back as a heal, and Last Stand only gives you 20%, even though it's added onto your health pool.
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Postby earanduin » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:18 pm

Ah but LS can be used proactively, very useful when expecting a surge in damage intake.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:27 pm

earanduin wrote:Ah but LS can be used proactively, very useful when expecting a surge in damage intake.


Ah, but Ardent Defender goes off automatically every time you drop under 35% health and has no CD. Very useful when you get an unexpected surge in damage intake.
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Postby Harlequina » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:50 pm

Ah!
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Postby MrDuck » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:55 am

Knaughty wrote:
earanduin wrote:Ah but LS can be used proactively, very useful when expecting a surge in damage intake.


Ah, but Ardent Defender goes off automatically every time you drop under 35% health and has no CD. Very useful when you get an unexpected surge in damage intake.
Both valid points...
LS is indeed pretty good when you expect some heavy damage...nightmare seeds and stuff help there too though, however, i think you more often need such lifesaving when you got to low health already, where LoH really rules (yes other people can do it on warriors...but when you're on low health already,healers probably already have enough troubles to rely on them, so LoH on self goes a long way with your own precious timing :> ). Also, you can combine it with consumables... some macro like /use Nightmare Seed(was it called like that right?) /cast Lay on Hands..not quite 20% of hp, not even close to last stand,but still nice HP boost. (I know that separate use of seed and LoH is in like every case a better idea, i guess when you're already low so you need LoH and you will also need the added hp right after being healed to full, your healers are probably wanking too much or just dead).

Well i think on the oh-shiet side we're quite on par with warriors now, unless i'm missing something?
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Postby Sheherezade » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:58 am

go with the one you feel is more fun to play... :(
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Postby corvilto » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:09 am

Sheherezade wrote:go with the one you feel is more fun to play... :(


What Sheherezade said, after all its what wotlk is all about. Other then that i would say it's better to have 2 different tank classes in 10mans rather then 2 of the same class, but it's a minor differences.

AS far as i understand the first raids in wotlk is pretty easy aswell so min/maxing is quite pointless.
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Postby Velgarn » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:49 am

I'd say whichever you enjoy playing more. I too have both, and love playing my paladin while tanking far more than my warrior - many people found pally boring, I liked it.

For LK I plan to continue my paladin, because not only can I tank. I can heal (did so from 1-60, all holy!) and with LK I can DPS! (Well, technically I could in TBC, but never actually spec'ed ret. It's way better now though.)

Scaling will be looked at if it becomes an issue, according to GC.

Spell damage is true, only thing we have is SoJustice + HotR for AoE lolstun action. Bosses should be getting interrupted by someone else if possible anyways. (Mage, lock, shaman, rogue, etc.) If all else fails, Bear with +7k HP and 18% (15 + 3% from sanc) = win?

The rest are dependant on the right class combination(s). For instance CS/BS = Imp + Might. Have a DK? No worrying about spell damage then. Have a lock(destro) - HP + Threat/DPS boost!

I'd say play what you want and let the DPS fill in the buff blanks. :lol:
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Postby Splug » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:54 am

Do you have a warlock? Commanding Shout is slightly better than Blood Pact, but warlocks with imps cover commanding shout fairly well. Curse of Weakness and Demoralizing Roar also compete with demo shout, so really you could sacrifice that as well.

I'd recommend taking a look at the raid utility manager on mmo-champion (raidcomp, I believe it's called), and fill in the blanks for the rest of your raid. See where that puts you.

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Postby EvilNuff » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:45 pm

Splug wrote:...
I'd recommend taking a look at the raid utility manager on mmo-champion (raidcomp, I believe it's called), and fill in the blanks for the rest of your raid. See where that puts you.

-Splug


I would recommend avoiding that tool at all costs...it is incredibly misleading.

For example...it calls thunder clap and judgements of the just as the same debuff category...yet TC is aoe which makes it unquestionably superior.
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Postby fiorina » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:04 pm

Roll warrior and get some prot paladin slave who will buff-bot you and tank some trash. Win-win
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Postby Selinaria » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:17 pm

As it stands right now, for 10 man raiding, play what is most fun. Things are close enough in most cases that any differences that are actually around will be, as Ghostcrawler puts it, lost in the noise of the fight.

As far as fun factor, all classes go about it a little differently now:

Warriors are not quite as rigid in their rotations due to Sword and Board procs but are still mashing abilities every GCD with heroic strikes thrown in as rage demands.

Paladins are a fairly rigid rotation as well now, if you are maxing your dps/tps you will never have a free GCD anymore. That can actually be quite fun ( I love it) because then you have to make decisions about whether it is worthwhile to use other abilities like cleanse or HoJ.

Druids are well....the exact same for fun factor, same rotation, same abilities, just an extra oh shit button in the form of last stand.

DKs are the most involved and their rotations can actually vary quite a bit based on the needs of the battle and the outcome of their attacks (a missed rune ability will throw the whole rotation off at least temporarily)

So fun factor is very subjective.


As far as who is superior, that is a little harder to say. Overall the math points towards warrior or druid but the difference is likely never ever ever gonna mean a damn thing in at least the first 10 mans. As people start raiding Icecrown or the "mystery" raid of 3.2 then we will see some bigger mitigation gaps in real raids that may have to be remedied by Blizzard.

For the content that matters (BOSSES) all tanks are roughly equal with some flavor variations. A lot of the things that warriors have are rather useless vs. bosses and if you really need it, a warlock can supply Curse of Weakness and you can never bring a warrior to a raid again! (lol) I will eat my hat if spell reflect is ever helpful on a boss because then Blizzard fails at their listed goal of 4 equal tanks.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:50 pm

Selinaria wrote: I will eat my hat if spell reflect is ever helpful on a boss because then Blizzard fails at their listed goal of 4 equal tanks.

And even if they failed, with Improved Spell Reflect, you don't really need him to tank.
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