Expertise - which abilities does it help?

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Expertise - which abilities does it help?

Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:32 pm

So.. I'm thinking about my Glyphs because we're still raiding - either we're hard-core or masochists, can't decide.

SoV Glyph seems like a good choice - it's roughly two talent points - 2.5% parry/dodge reduction.

The question is... which of our abilities can be dodged or parried? I'm trying to work out how good it actually is...

Expertise helps
• Auto-attack
• Reduced parry-gibbage.

Expertise doesn't help
• Holy Shield
• Consecration

I donno...
• HotR - procs seals, thus it's a melee attack?
• Shor - melee range... melee attack?

Pretty sure it doesn't help
These are all spells, long range, and I don't think it helps.
• AS
• Exorcism
• Judgement
• Taunt

Special case
• Seals - doesn't help the seal, but does help the auto-attack. Pretty minimal benefit to SoV, will stack a little quicker.
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Postby Shainey » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:36 pm

Looks about right to me. HotR and and ShoR I'm pretty sure are melee attacks, and thus subject to the melee attack table.
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Postby Sharlos » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:39 pm

judgement is considered a ranged attack, so no idea if it works
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Postby Makaijin » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:40 pm

Basically any skill that can be dodged or parried will benefit from expertise. I'm not sure about ShoR, but HotR can be dodged, and deflected. I'm not sure on the deflect of HotR, but it's still dodgeable, so it should benefit either way.
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Re: Expertise - which abilities does it help?

Postby majiben » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:51 pm

Knaughty wrote:So.. I'm thinking about my Glyphs because we're still raiding - either we're hard-core or masochists, can't decide.

SoV Glyph seems like a good choice - it's roughly two talent points - 2.5% parry/dodge reduction.

The question is... which of our abilities can be dodged or parried? I'm trying to work out how good it actually is...

Expertise helps
• Auto-attack
• Reduced parry-gibbage.
• HotR
•SoB

Expertise doesn't help
• Holy Shield
• Consecration
• Shor
• Exorcism
• Judgement
• Taunt

Pretty sure it doesn't help
These are all spells, long range, and I don't think it helps.
• AS


Special case
• Seals - doesn't help the seal, but does help the auto-attack. Pretty minimal benefit to SoV, will stack a little quicker.
Rearranged it a little :-D
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Re: Expertise - which abilities does it help?

Postby Cowadin » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:05 pm

Knaughty wrote:So.. I'm thinking about my Glyphs because we're still raiding - either we're hard-core or masochists, can't decide.

SoV Glyph seems like a good choice - it's roughly two talent points - 2.5% parry/dodge reduction.


Well, you won't have to think about this one until LK release at least, and it won't effect your raiding until then -- I'm pretty sure the mats for that glyph are Northrend only.

10% judgement damage and +2% spiritual attunement for me.

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Postby Orms » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:21 pm

Im going with 10% judgement damage, 8% RD hit, and 10 expertise SoV
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Re: Expertise - which abilities does it help?

Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:15 pm

Cowadin wrote:Well, you won't have to think about this one until LK release at least, and it won't effect your raiding until then -- I'm pretty sure the mats for that glyph are Northrend only.


Bugger, you're correct.
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Postby Tahl » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:39 pm

Wouldn't the equivalent amount of hit rating be better, at least until you're hit capped? It would affect just about everything on there except consecration since it helps spells and physical. I'm looking forward to the threat math on all of this.
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Postby thegreatheed » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:51 pm

Tahl wrote:Wouldn't the equivalent amount of hit rating be better, at least until you're hit capped? It would affect just about everything on there except consecration since it helps spells and physical. I'm looking forward to the threat math on all of this.


hit even helps consecration.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:56 pm

thegreatheed wrote:
Tahl wrote:Wouldn't the equivalent amount of hit rating be better, at least until you're hit capped? It would affect just about everything on there except consecration since it helps spells and physical. I'm looking forward to the threat math on all of this.


hit even helps consecration.

Since when? Consecration doesn't miss.

The zero damage imaginary first tick can miss. The ticks that do damage can't.
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Postby Sonic » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:07 pm

Between the expertise talent and what's on the gear, how much would this glyph actually really help? The 10man T7 helm gives 30 expertise, 35 on the 25man version. Another peice here or there is bound to have some. With later upgrades offering more.

And seeing as the added Glyph is only usable when SoV is up, I think there are much better options.
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Postby tullock » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:26 pm

Well, sov is pretty much the primary seal you will have up as prot, and the glyph is 10 expertise, not 10 expertise rating, its worth a whole lot more than 10 rating. Id imagine that it will be worth stacking up to 22 or 23 expertise if dodge stays at 5.6%. 3 from talents, plus 10 from the glyph, leaves you needing 9-10 from racials and gear to hit the dodge cap for it.
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Postby Kayoto » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:33 pm

Knaughty wrote:The zero damage imaginary first tick can miss. The ticks that do damage can't.


Incorrect. Each individual tick of Consecration can get resisted, but these resists don't produce anything in the combat log.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17089-paladin_protection_you/p97/

Chicken wrote:It's not a change, it's just a very unknown fact of Consecration: The spell does "miss" like other spells do, in it's case potentially on every tick, but it's not reported in the combat log when it does miss. I only learned of it myself a month ago, and had prior to that incorrectly stated in the Protection Paladin article that only the first tick could be resisted.



EDIT: This functionality may or may not be 'new' with 3.0 -- it seems like people can't reach a consensus. For what it's worth, in all my time tanking at live I can't say I've ever really noticed a consecration tick just NOT producing damage, but then again, I never really watched carefully either.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:54 pm

Sonic wrote:Between the expertise talent and what's on the gear, how much would this glyph actually really help? The 10man T7 helm gives 30 expertise, 35 on the 25man version. Another peice here or there is bound to have some. With later upgrades offering more.

Gear has Expertise rating, not raw Expertise. The Glyph appears to be Expertise. Conversion is about 8:1 - the Glyph is thus about 80 expertise rating - as much as 2-3 pieces of Expertise rating gear.

Of the entire 5-piece set, only the Faceguard has any: 35 rating, 3.76 expertise

There's only two other slots of ilevel 213+ plate in the whole of Tier-7 that have defence rating and expertise:
• Pauldrons of Unnatural Death - 30
• Sabatons of Endurance - 38

Drop to ilevel 200 and there some gloves and a chest:
• Horn-Tipped Gauntlets - 67!
• Massive Skeletal Ribcage - 45

10 expertise from glyph
6 from talents

You still want at least 80 rating from gear just to get dodge off the table, and more hugely more to remove parry.
Sonic wrote:And seeing as the added Glyph is only usable when SoV is up, I think there are much better options.


Name one? The glyph is "5% more attacks actually connect".

Someone else already pointed out that SoV is up 100% of the time when you're actually tanking.
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