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Single Target Taunt Glyph - Blizzard Response

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Postby Macha » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:37 am

Belloc wrote:There's nothing wrong with giving us a single-target taunt. I certainly wouldn't mind having one. The fact is that we don't need it.

It would make certain fights easier, but we've managed well enough without it


[Disagreeing is fine. Disagreeing impolitely is not. -Lore]

The point is that tanks are supposed to be interchangeable. The fact is that they are not, and that there are bosses where the mere fact that there is a Paladin tanking makes the boss noticeably more complicated.

It's odd that it is always the Paladin class that makes fights more complicated, not less. This is *not* fine.

It sounds like some of the people having difficulty with RD when the mob switches targets are targeting the raid member


No, targetting the mob. Problem: In such situations aggro might switch several times a second. Serverside latency can just screw you there, and often will.

I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used


One Word: Abomination.
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Postby Conaan! » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:18 am

Macha wrote:
I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used


One Word: Abomination.


aboms cause wipes, no really, your doing it wrong if its causing a wipe, fix your strategy a bit and its fine.

the paladin taunt is a taunt thats unique! challenging and fun all at the same time, i personally love it and wouldnt give it up for anything in the world
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:30 am

Conaan! wrote:
Macha wrote:
I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used


One Word: Abomination.


aboms cause wipes, no really, your doing it wrong if its causing a wipe, fix your strategy a bit and its fine.

the paladin taunt is a taunt thats unique! challenging and fun all at the same time, i personally love it and wouldnt give it up for anything in the world


It also has a much higher failure rate than any other taunt, and that failure rate can not be mitigated by the player. I'd trade it in a heartbeat.

If you are using a taunt at all on encounters not designed for it, you are doing it wrong, that goes without saying. However, people mess up, and stuff gets loose and pallys aren't always as freely able to taunt as any other tanking class.


EDIT: Also the pally taunt is the least challenging to be honest. My UI lights up red on folks who have aggro. I can taunt whatever is hitting much easier than having to figure out which mob that is and taunt it directly.
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Postby Petrus » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:47 am

Yeah, after playing with it with some mages in UBRS last night, one of the easiest things to do is taunt off of a player instead of taunt a mob off of them, but when they get rooted and don't have targets it can get pretty rough actually getting it to work right.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:53 am

Long story short: Our taunt is the sublimation of goblin and gnomish technology. Such an aberration that they did not dare creating more.
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Postby Conaan! » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:15 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Macha wrote:
I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used


One Word: Abomination.


aboms cause wipes, no really, your doing it wrong if its causing a wipe, fix your strategy a bit and its fine.

the paladin taunt is a taunt thats unique! challenging and fun all at the same time, i personally love it and wouldnt give it up for anything in the world


It also has a much higher failure rate than any other taunt, and that failure rate can not be mitigated by the player. I'd trade it in a heartbeat.

If you are using a taunt at all on encounters not designed for it, you are doing it wrong, that goes without saying. However, people mess up, and stuff gets loose and pallys aren't always as freely able to taunt as any other tanking class.


EDIT: Also the pally taunt is the least challenging to be honest. My UI lights up red on folks who have aggro. I can taunt whatever is hitting much easier than having to figure out which mob that is and taunt it directly.


its failure rate is DIRECTLY tied to the paladin user, if a mob charges, drops aggro and runs to that idiotic dps'er, i know i wait until hes almost to that target to make DEAD sure he isnt gonna change, then i taunt, split second reactions and common sense along with %increase to hit glyph makes it EASILY the best taunt.

its the fact that you must pay attention to the mob your taunting and who your taunting off that makes our taunt harder than any other taunt.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:19 am

Conaan! wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Macha wrote:
I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used


One Word: Abomination.


aboms cause wipes, no really, your doing it wrong if its causing a wipe, fix your strategy a bit and its fine.
paladin taunt is a taunt thats unique! challenging and fun all at the same time, i personally love it and wouldnt give it up for anything in the world


It also has a much higher failure rate than any other taunt, and that failure rate can not be mitigated by the player. I'd trade it in a heartbeat.

If you are using a taunt at all on encounters not designed for it, you are doing it wrong, that goes without saying. However, people mess up, and stuff gets loose and pallys aren't always as freely able to taunt as any other tanking class.


EDIT: Also the pally taunt is the least challenging to be honest. My UI lights up red on folks who have aggro. I can taunt whatever is hitting much easier than having to figure out which mob that is and taunt it directly.


its failure rate is DIRECTLY tied to the paladin user, if a mob charges, drops aggro and runs to that idiotic dps'er, i know i wait until hes almost to that target to make DEAD sure he isnt gonna change, then i taunt, split second reactions and common sense along with %increase to hit glyph makes it EASILY the best taunt.

its the fact that you must pay attention to the mob your taunting and who your taunting off that makes our taunt harder than any other taunt.
The fact that every other tank can just taunt as soon as the enemy is loose, without having to wait, or without risking, you know, the mob killing the player, or the player's timing to ice block/shield/vanish be identical to yours, thus skewing the taunt anyway, doesn't ring you any bell?

Yes, RD is nice. No RD isn't fine. Fights designed around taunts are designed around dk, druid and warrior taunts, not RD taunt. This generates conflicts which are the reason this thread exists after all.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:34 am

Conaan! wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Macha wrote:
I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used


One Word: Abomination.


aboms cause wipes, no really, your doing it wrong if its causing a wipe, fix your strategy a bit and its fine.

the paladin taunt is a taunt thats unique! challenging and fun all at the same time, i personally love it and wouldnt give it up for anything in the world


It also has a much higher failure rate than any other taunt, and that failure rate can not be mitigated by the player. I'd trade it in a heartbeat.

If you are using a taunt at all on encounters not designed for it, you are doing it wrong, that goes without saying. However, people mess up, and stuff gets loose and pallys aren't always as freely able to taunt as any other tanking class.


EDIT: Also the pally taunt is the least challenging to be honest. My UI lights up red on folks who have aggro. I can taunt whatever is hitting much easier than having to figure out which mob that is and taunt it directly.


its failure rate is DIRECTLY tied to the paladin user, if a mob charges, drops aggro and runs to that idiotic dps'er, i know i wait until hes almost to that target to make DEAD sure he isnt gonna change, then i taunt, split second reactions and common sense along with %increase to hit glyph makes it EASILY the best taunt.

its the fact that you must pay attention to the mob your taunting and who your taunting off that makes our taunt harder than any other taunt.


As I said before our taunt is easy, I have a big red taunt me sign on who I'm supposed to taunt if some random mob gets loose, and that works really well.

Target switching is caused by tons and tons of variables, very few of which do you actually have any control over or anywhere near complete ability to predict, (player death, player immunities, aggro drops by both mob and player, other taunts, ranged threat modifiers as the mob moves, stuns, targeted spell casts etc etc) further added to that, you have both client side and server side latencies for you and your entire raid.

That's even ignoring the times it should work but does absolutely nothing except go on cooldown, which is just a flat out bug, and the times you want only one mob from a group or a specific mob when there's more than 3, or when the mob is right next to you but is targeting someone out of range. There's definitely some bonuses you get with RD, but to me they are more than nullified by the problems.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:37 am

An example of RD failsauce to it's fullest: Blackheart the Inciter, Shadow Labyrinth.
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taunt

Postby chaos45 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:04 pm

everyone talking about how difficult it is to use the pali taunt cause u have to wait till the mob runs off after a DPS.

Well any paladin that has been tanking awhile should have a macro set up for righteous defense that auto targets, target of target....and then while ur tanking have show target of on, and omg....once the boss or mob switches target to a dps u just hit the macro and u auto taunt still even targeting that mob. Is a real easy macro and any paladin that is trying to be a MT or even a guild OT should have it. If not u fail.

I do agree the only trying to take one mob with our taunt is a total fail and has caused problems, and especially with the other tanks getting a ranged taunt we should also gain a sinlge taunt as that is just fair. Either that or other tanks shouldnt get a ranged taunt think blizzard just needs to make that decision.

As in some fights just the fact i had a ranged taunt made me more versitile than other tanks.

just my opinions though
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Re: taunt

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:05 pm

chaos45 wrote:everyone talking about how difficult it is to use the pali taunt cause u have to wait till the mob runs off after a DPS.

Well any paladin that has been tanking awhile should have a macro set up for righteous defense that auto targets, target of target....and then while ur tanking have show target of on, and omg....once the boss or mob switches target to a dps u just hit the macro and u auto taunt still even targeting that mob. Is a real easy macro and any paladin that is trying to be a MT or even a guild OT should have it. If not u fail.

I do agree the only trying to take one mob with our taunt is a total fail and has caused problems, and especially with the other tanks getting a ranged taunt we should also gain a sinlge taunt as that is just fair. Either that or other tanks shouldnt get a ranged taunt think blizzard just needs to make that decision.

As in some fights just the fact i had a ranged taunt made me more versitile than other tanks.

just my opinions though
Hm, you missed the point.
Waiting for the mob to target a dps involves the macro already.


Fact: RD doesn't cast on mobs without targets.
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Re: taunt

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:13 pm

chaos45 wrote:everyone talking about how difficult it is to use the pali taunt cause u have to wait till the mob runs off after a DPS.

Well any paladin that has been tanking awhile should have a macro set up for righteous defense that auto targets, target of target....and then while ur tanking have show target of on, and omg....once the boss or mob switches target to a dps u just hit the macro and u auto taunt still even targeting that mob. Is a real easy macro and any paladin that is trying to be a MT or even a guild OT should have it. If not u fail.

I do agree the only trying to take one mob with our taunt is a total fail and has caused problems, and especially with the other tanks getting a ranged taunt we should also gain a sinlge taunt as that is just fair. Either that or other tanks shouldnt get a ranged taunt think blizzard just needs to make that decision.

As in some fights just the fact i had a ranged taunt made me more versitile than other tanks.

just my opinions though


They actually changed the behavior of RD a little while ago so you don't need a macro. I'm sure we all used one before, but you don't need to now. If you cast it on a hostile mob, it'll automatically cast on his target. Unfortunately, that didn't help the problem at all.

They did increase the range of taunt for the other tanks to 20 yards, I believe.
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Postby 2ndNin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:06 am

Sorry, but parts of the last page read something silly, RD is great, it works and it does what its meant to, however its unsafe and doesn't do what it needs to to make us get the result we need.

The fact is that fights are based around an N target taunt (N >= 1) functional on a timer (T <= 45s) that can be used with the only requirement of line of sight to the target.

RD successfully meets the two first constraints, its cooldown is fine and the number of targets is fin, however the line of sight requirement on our taunt fails because we cannot guarantee that the target's target will be in LoS.

You can fix it by giving us a single target taunt that meets the requirements, by modifying RD to taunt the target directly +2 others if its unfriendly, you can fit a taunt onto judgements or consecration, or you can even do something like:

Salvation of Souls: 30min buff, single target
The target always counts as being in Line of Sight and within 40yards.

If anything that one is really nice as it allows a Paladin to always heal a target irrespective of locations. However it also fits the requirement of the LoS for our taunt.

If you don't want to use a single target taunt, or have it on something silly, then fine, it really doesn't matter in 95% of cases, however in the 5% of cases that matter (Gothik, 4HM, Drak'theron keep for fear so far) yes it does matter and our tanking the target is more reliant on having the correct group make up to successfully complete the task, its silly forcing a tank to rely on others for baseline tanking requirements, and this is one, its not like my argument for a fearbreak (not proven as a requirement), there are 2 fights, at a minimum, in the game where not having this makes us a liability.
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Re: taunt

Postby Maswin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:11 am

chaos45 wrote:Is a real easy macro and any paladin that is trying to be a MT or even a guild OT should have it. If not u fail.


Not everyone rolls with macros for everything. You don't need a macro to succeed, you just need skill and intellect. It's quite easy to hit F then taunt.

About the subject of the matter, I can't see how their only justification for not providing a single target taunt is not wanting to make the paladin/warrior _too_ similar...haven't they already done that? How is a single target taunt going to adversely affect that?

As long as they don't have any encounter which 100% requires 2 tanks with single target taunt ability at various stages throughout, then its not so bad and we can get on with it like normal...but as I understand 4 horsemen already fills that spot? Forcing us to glyph AS is not an answer as it doesn't fit with their new ideology, nor is it a taunt.
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Postby 2ndNin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:22 am

4HM needs 1 tank with a single target taunt, the issue comes up for dual paladin tanking teams. The work around for it it the Paladin taunts first, then the other tank taunts off us (or burn down fast). Its a hack though and means 2 Paladins need a Warrior / Druid / DK DPS/Healer to taunt for us to do it safely without the I taunt, you taunt, fight for 10% thing.

Gothik with the live and dead side is more worrying, as we simply will not be able to taunt him as we can't get line of sight to the threat target, other tanks don't worry about this, again it can be worked round by having a warrior / druid / dk on our side and taunt for us... but especially in 10 mans you cannot guarantee those classes presence (and if you can have a warrior / druid it might be the tank on the other side..., which makes it useless).
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