Single Target Taunt Glyph - Blizzard Response

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:57 am

Ahh, I found the quote: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/2/99566459 ... nment.html

There is no reason to bring a druid over a warrior. Not if we do our jobs right. There is no reason to bring a warrior over a druid either. We want you to get a tank. We don't want you sidelining your X tank while you are trying hard to recruit a Y tank.

Bring the tank with the best gear or the most skill. Bring the guy that always shares consumables or can make every raid. Bring the dude who doesn't complain or researches boss strategies or finds great new people to join your group. Don't bring a player because his class has the magic button for a boss fight; if we do our jobs right, there won't be any.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:58 am

"Bring the tank with the best gear or the most skill. Bring the guy that always shares consumables or can make every raid. Bring the dude who doesn't complain or researches boss strategies or finds great new people to join your group. Don't bring a player because his class has the magic button for a boss fight; if we do our jobs right, there won't be any."
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#50


"In BC, it was not a goal to have paladins be able to MT every encounter. It is now. It is useful to point out areas where you think there are problems, and I promise we'll consider them. But you should really spec out of all the doom and gloom. :)"
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#20

"If we find that the lack of a single-target taunt really hurts paladins, then we'll give it to them. But we're not convinced that is the case yet."
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#14


What qualifies as hurting paladins, taunt-wise then? So far the RD mechanics make one fight excessively troublesome(4 HM: can't taunt just one), and make the other potentially hard(ToT LoS on Gothik)




That sums it up, I guess. RD as it is now, and Naxx as it is now, go against what they stated themselves.
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Postby Katamai » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:03 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:"If we find that the lack of a single-target taunt really hurts paladins, then we'll give it to them. But we're not convinced that is the case yet."
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#14


This is retarded... WHO designed Naxx if they won't know that we have taunt issues there? Irish pixies?
I... was... once... called... Ashbringer...
My... son... watched... me... die...
KILL... THEM... ALL!
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:08 pm

Hey man, don't brin Irish pixies up... Pixie Dust is a mean drug, Irish ones are the ones who blow you really, really, really hard.
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Postby Katamai » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:25 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:Hey man, don't brin Irish pixies up... Pixie Dust is a mean drug, Irish ones are the ones who blow you really, really, really hard.


I know... i refused and still refuse to roll a warrior tank! :P

Love my baby too much which is why i'm annoyed by stupid things like this, especially if solution is as simple as copy/paste, rename to Righteous Bitch-pull and call it a day :/
I... was... once... called... Ashbringer...
My... son... watched... me... die...
KILL... THEM... ALL!
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Postby Katamai » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:27 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:Hey man, don't brin Irish pixies up... Pixie Dust is a mean drug, Irish ones are the ones who blow you really, really, really hard.


I know... i refused and still refuse to roll a warrior tank! :P

Love my baby too much which is why i'm annoyed by stupid things like this, especially if solution is as simple as copy/paste, rename to Righteous Bitch-pull and call it a day :/
I... was... once... called... Ashbringer...
My... son... watched... me... die...
KILL... THEM... ALL!
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Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:28 pm

Katamai wrote:This is retarded... WHO designed Naxx if they won't know that we have taunt issues there? Irish pixies?


To be fair, most Naxx fight mechanics predate TBC, so ...
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Postby adacus79 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:51 pm

FIXT:
if you target x mob you taunt one target
if you target x player you taunt 3 mobs off him.

simple mechanical fix no added spell just make the spell work like that.
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Postby Bk992004 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:28 pm

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Zironic wrote:or on 4 horsemen it's impossible for 2 paladins to switch horseman because once one of them taunts he'll have both horses and the other paladin can't then take only 1 of them back.

I was actually trying to think of an example of this. Their being one in the very first instance really nails it down.

It's really the bottom line to this discussion. You can complete this encounter with 2 warriors tanking, 2 druids tanking or 2 death knights tanking. Whether you feel you need or want a single target taunt, it cannot be completed with 2 paladins tanking.


Up front I freely admit I've never taken part in the 4horsemen fight, so I don't how it's set-up. So please don't flame me for asking this.

If you do happen to take 2 pally tanks to this fight why is it so hard/complicated? To start, if they're close, 1 uses AS or whatever they want to pull 3, the other does SoR or maybe AS with the single-target glyph to pick up #4, and both tanks stay a fair distance apart.

After #4 dies (if that's who you'd kill 1st), the tank on #4 pulls the 3 off the other tank. As they're moving to their new target, the tank who originally had all 3 uses SoR to take 1 back, etc...

Like I said, I've not done the fight so I don't know what the actual set-up looks like, but the mechanics don't seem to me to be overly complicated. No more so than timing taunts correctly with a 2nd tank on Nalorakk (sp?) for example.

Would it take some practice? Yes. Should you be able to read a guide and walk in a wipe a raid boss on your 1st try no problem? No.
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Postby Sonic » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:41 pm

Ya know, all this crying over RD is really stupid. It's akin to crying abuot how maiden is hard to tank since she silences constantly.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:41 pm

Bk992004 wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Zironic wrote:or on 4 horsemen it's impossible for 2 paladins to switch horseman because once one of them taunts he'll have both horses and the other paladin can't then take only 1 of them back.

I was actually trying to think of an example of this. Their being one in the very first instance really nails it down.

It's really the bottom line to this discussion. You can complete this encounter with 2 warriors tanking, 2 druids tanking or 2 death knights tanking. Whether you feel you need or want a single target taunt, it cannot be completed with 2 paladins tanking.


Up front I freely admit I've never taken part in the 4horsemen fight, so I don't how it's set-up. So please don't flame me for asking this.

If you do happen to take 2 pally tanks to this fight why is it so hard/complicated? To start, if they're close, 1 uses AS or whatever they want to pull 3, the other does SoR or maybe AS with the single-target glyph to pick up #4, and both tanks stay a fair distance apart.

After #4 dies (if that's who you'd kill 1st), the tank on #4 pulls the 3 off the other tank. As they're moving to their new target, the tank who originally had all 3 uses SoR to take 1 back, etc...

Like I said, I've not done the fight so I don't know what the actual set-up looks like, but the mechanics don't seem to me to be overly complicated. No more so than timing taunts correctly with a 2nd tank on Nalorakk (sp?) for example.

Would it take some practice? Yes. Should you be able to read a guide and walk in a wipe a raid boss on your 1st try no problem? No.
By the time one dies, ShoR alone won't pick back up after a taunt, it'll take about half a minute to outthreat it. Third and Fourth get a little worse.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:48 pm

Four Horsemen is not really an issue for 2 paladin tanks. There are two reasons that I say this:

1. If your DPS doesn't suck, you're going to kill one of the horsemen before this taunt issue becomes a problem. Once that horseman is dead, the issue is gone.

2. Coordination over Vent (3, 2, 1, TAUNT!) does result in both paladins successfully taunting the other paladin's mob.
icbat wrote:Not sure about 25, but 10-man was do-able with 2 paladin tanks, although it takes some coordination and a lack of lag. I'm still not sure why it worked like it did, but I'm happy that it did.

Over vent, we counted to 3. On 3, we both taunted each other. If we did it right, they swapped.

Like I said, I have no idea why it worked, but it did.

GL


So, when is this going to be a problem? When your DPS is so bad that you can't burn the first horseman down AND when your paladin MT's cannot coordinate a simple thing like taunting at the same time. If that is the case, you're probably not going to get to 4HM in the first place.
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Postby Bk992004 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:56 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:By the time one dies, ShoR alone won't pick back up after a taunt, it'll take about half a minute to outthreat it. Third and Fourth get a little worse.


I thought RD worked to where it made your threat equal for a few seconds and telling enemies, "Come get me," at which point the person who wanted just 1 mob back could just use a judgement to increase their threat on 1 target to pull that 1 right back.

Was worth a shot... least I don't have to pay the repair bills to see I was wrong :p

Anyways, thanks :)
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:00 pm

Bk992004 wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:By the time one dies, ShoR alone won't pick back up after a taunt, it'll take about half a minute to outthreat it. Third and Fourth get a little worse.


I thought RD worked to where it made your threat equal for a few seconds and telling enemies, "Come get me," at which point the person who wanted just 1 mob back could just use a judgement to increase their threat on 1 target to pull that 1 right back.

Was worth a shot... least I don't have to pay the repair bills to see I was wrong :p

Anyways, thanks :)
It does, the extra difficulty comes in the form that, if you have more threat on the mob, it takes more threat to overcome that 10% difference that you need to steal it back without a taunt.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:05 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:
Bk992004 wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:By the time one dies, ShoR alone won't pick back up after a taunt, it'll take about half a minute to outthreat it. Third and Fourth get a little worse.


I thought RD worked to where it made your threat equal for a few seconds and telling enemies, "Come get me," at which point the person who wanted just 1 mob back could just use a judgement to increase their threat on 1 target to pull that 1 right back.

Was worth a shot... least I don't have to pay the repair bills to see I was wrong :p

Anyways, thanks :)
It does, the extra difficulty comes in the form that, if you have more threat on the mob, it takes more threat to overcome that 10% difference that you need to steal it back without a taunt.


Yeah the issue is that the person has to pass your total threat by 10%. If he's been whacking away on the mob for 30 seconds and you taunt it, you get all his threat. So if he's done 100k threat in that time, he won't get the mob back until he does 10k threat on it, and that's assuming the mob isn't standing in your consecrate and eating your holy shield charges.
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