Single Target Taunt Glyph - Blizzard Response

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Single Target Taunt Glyph - Blizzard Response

Postby moduspwnens » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:34 am

MMOChampion wrote:Q: The sound for HoR is so annoying and needs to be changed. as far as taunting, the 3 target taunt is great until you're trying to taunt one thing and is there any chance the 11 point talent would be a single target taunt.
A: It wouldn't be a 11 point talent. it'd be pretty lame to have to spec down into that. there's a glyph to make it single target but it comes down to how similar do the classes have to be? we had to change the DK because it was too much like warriors and druids.


I assume the bolded statement refers to our Avenger's Shield glyph (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41101), as I've seen nothing else in-game or otherwise.

Tank homogenization needs to go both ways. The other tanks were given twenty yard taunts, strong AoE tanking, and (Warriors) a strong ranged pull, yet somehow wanting a taunt that either hits or resists, and works with other tanks is just making us too similar. Many times, Righteous Defense just fails. Assuming the answer referred to the Avenger's Shield glyph, it's not enough.

I was tanking Nalorakk in a ZA group just this weekend when a DPS shaman pulled aggro just as I cast RD on the other tank to taunt Nalorakk as he shifted to bear form. After my group was mowed down by a bear I had almost zero threat on, I had to explain how the Paladin taunt works, and how if the target switches targets at the same time as I taunt, the taunt is put on cooldown with nothing I can do until I can cast it again. This is a common issue that's been around since the taunt was coined, and as Tankadins, it's something we've just worked around.

I'm not sure I need to go in-depth about why it's needed to work with other tanks. There are tons of situations where a tank may have picked up an additional mob and one needs to be taunted off. One thing that commonly ticks off tanks is other tanks taunting off of them. As a Paladin, there's no way around it. Perhaps the tank is supposed to pick up two hard hitters and takes three. If I taunt off of him, I take all of them, and likely get owned because the healers are busy healing the other guy. Let's say he pulls two, and I need to get one of them. I can take both of them, annoying him and requiring him to use his taunt just because mine is poorly designed, or I can pray my single target shield throw is enough to take one off.

Let's say you have two Tankadins tanking Hyjal trash. It's kind of stupid, isn't it? RD taunts three random mobs off the tank, so that second Tankadin is likely taunting off Ghouls, Banshees, or Necromancers while Abominations continue to stun the main Tankadin. Or, for example, the Four Horsemen encounter, where tanks need to switch mobs. Using two Tankadins would require a special strategy, and using one still requires working around this annoying "flavor" difference, while Warriors and Druids continue to have the "baseline, normal" taunt.

Bottom Line: Our taunt's only strength was homogenized to other tanks, but its nigh-uselessness when working with other tanks and risk of doing nothing if the target switches targets stayed. Please give us a glyph or talent that allows us to taunt and work with other tanks properly. A single target potential threat lead that "taunts" nothing after any threat has been built is not appropriate.

I've presented the idea of making a Rank 1 RD that taunts only one mob as well as a Rank 2 in its current form. However, it's not a big deal how it gets done. It just needs to get done. The Four Horsemen encounter in Naxx shows that encounter design certainly isn't going to steer completely clear of "requiring" one. Please fix this issue.
Last edited by moduspwnens on Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Tahl » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:47 am

I know I can't afford to use two slots for taunt glyphs (the hit one and this). I think this one is just being thrown out there as a possibility anyway.
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Postby Zalaria » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:44 pm

When I heard him say that, I assumed that he had confused it with the avenger's shield glyph, which does take a 3-target and makes it a 1-target. Whether that's actually the case or if there's a glyph they have that we don't, I can't say.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:23 pm

Minor Glyph?
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:30 pm

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... sid=2000#0

Edited OP and posted to beta forums.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:44 pm

Zalaria wrote:When I heard him say that, I assumed that he had confused it with the avenger's shield glyph, which does take a 3-target and makes it a 1-target. Whether that's actually the case or if there's a glyph they have that we don't, I can't say.


My thoughts as well, and I really hate to say it, but if they think we want a single target taunt so that we can have a good warrior ability they are missing the point.

I think we could deal with the lack of precision to our taunt if it didn't go on cooldown without taunting something. The biggest issue is more of a technical problem that they haven't been able to solve, than anything else.
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Postby Tahl » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:34 pm

Thanks, nice post. Making RD two ranks (single and multi) makes a lot of sense.. perhaps too much sense for them to do it. :wink: I really don't want to waste another glyph slot or have this be our 11pt talent though -- we really need this basic tanking ability baseline. Save those slots for something new instead of just playing catch up with everyone else imo.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:44 pm

Tahl wrote:Thanks, nice post. Making RD two ranks (single and multi) makes a lot of sense.. perhaps too much sense for them to do it. :wink: I really don't want to waste another glyph slot or have this be our 11pt talent though -- we really need this basic tanking ability baseline. Save those slots for something new instead of just playing catch up with everyone else imo.


Haha, give us a real taunt and then make RD our 11 pointer. That wouldn't be too bad.
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Postby Xwind » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:34 pm

Imo we should get a Mocking Blow type move. Holy Strike, awesome name?

thoughts.
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Postby steadypal » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:12 pm

kinda like

turn undead

vs

turn evil

???
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Postby Warcraft » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:35 pm

Xwind wrote:Imo we should get a Mocking Blow type move. Holy Strike, awesome name?

thoughts.

Righteous Strike makes a lot more sense since nearly every Paladin tanking ability is branded Righteous. Holy Strike was an ability in classic beta. You used it after stacking a holy damage debuff on the target with the old Crusader Strike (like many Scarlet Crusade NPCs still do).
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Postby Fafa » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:46 pm

Wishful thinking.

I'm holding my breath for that other rank of ShoR that they said we would be getting. I don't think I'm going to make it...
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:00 am

What I don't get is that Blizard reason for not giving paladins something doesn't prevent them to overcome this statement with the other classes.

In BC, they claimed they couldn't afford doing protection paladin weapons (ie spell damage + tanking stat) because it was to specific. Didn't prevent them to design a couple of feral power weapons.
They didn't gave resilience + spell damage + strength + agi to pvp retribution sets but ferals got the 4 stats (healing instead of spell damage but still 4 different stats).

Now, they say if we get a single target taunt we'll be too much like the other tanks while we're still the only one that only have one taunt ?
At the same time, they gave warriors heroic throw while warriors already have range pull.

It really really doesn't make sense at all if they really want some partity amoung the tanks.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:51 am

Bumping due to blue post.

Ghostcrawler wrote:From my POV, the homogenization argument isn't ridiculous. It's something that is a concern for a lot of players. Just because you may not agree, doesn't mean we can discount that. Paladin and warrior tanks particularly (because they are both plate-wearers who use a shield) risk feeling like they're the same class. Each has gotten several of the abilities or functionality of the others, and I could find a few threads requesting all of the things that aren't shared yet to be shared. :) Remember, we've already essentially said that their threat and survivability need to be very close.

If we find that the lack of a single-target taunt really hurts paladins, then we'll give it to them. But we're not convinced that is the case yet.


Please offer your responses in the thread, and explain to GC why you think a single target taunt is or is not a necessary tanking tool.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#14
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:13 am

moduspwnens wrote:Bumping due to blue post.

Ghostcrawler wrote:From my POV, the homogenization argument isn't ridiculous. It's something that is a concern for a lot of players. Just because you may not agree, doesn't mean we can discount that. Paladin and warrior tanks particularly (because they are both plate-wearers who use a shield) risk feeling like they're the same class. Each has gotten several of the abilities or functionality of the others, and I could find a few threads requesting all of the things that aren't shared yet to be shared. :) Remember, we've already essentially said that their threat and survivability need to be very close.

If we find that the lack of a single-target taunt really hurts paladins, then we'll give it to them. But we're not convinced that is the case yet.


Please offer your responses in the thread, and explain to GC why you think a single target taunt is or is not a necessary tanking tool.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#14


Would love to, but I cant post on the US forums. :(
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