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grr

Postby Morganim » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:15 am

just wondering

Paladins were decent off-tanks but not great main tanks, this is fixed in WotLK. Paladins should focus on protection gear instead of spell power.


Did that anger anyone else?

All the tanking classes are now suitable as a main tank and their threat has been greatly increased to make fights more fun, fights are now more about skills than dying because of a random aggro.


and did that make no sense at all to anyone else as well?
i read it as 'we completely removed any skill in tanking as a retarded hampster can now keyboard mash for enough TPS'
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Postby Ashmadai » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:30 am

What is there to anger you about the first statement? They were just saying by design Paladins did not make great main tanks. That in no way takes away from the great Paladins who did MT during TBC, they're just saying their philospophy was that Paladins were not as good at it. Now they are. This blizzcon info is aimed at the people who don't read forums and stuff like this. I'm sure there are plenty of people who play Prot Paladins who still don't know that we are going away from spell damage gear.

For the second point, they're just trying to get across that they want tanking to be about running a rotation and doing some damage, having fun with a lot of neat abilities that will also maintain your TPS, but you don't have to resort to gimmicks like a Sanctity Aura spec and threat flasks to make sure that the DPS aren't riding you like a cheap whore.

At the end of the day, the things about tanking that make a good tank still aren't changing. Reaction time, use of taunt/secondary abilities/stuns and all that. There will still be good tanks and bad tanks.
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Re: grr

Postby majiben » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:31 am

Morganim wrote:just wondering

Paladins were decent off-tanks but not great main tanks, this is fixed in WotLK. Paladins should focus on protection gear instead of spell power.


Did that anger anyone else?

There was a lot of anger on this board when GC said that paladins and druids were purposely designed to be inferior tanks. That said the news is old and blizzard has shown that they are committed to not have favoritism on that scale ever again.

Morganim wrote:
All the tanking classes are now suitable as a main tank and their threat has been greatly increased to make fights more fun, fights are now more about skills than dying because of a random aggro.


and did that make no senses at all to anyone else as well?
i read it as 'we completely removed any skill in tanking as a retarded hampster can now keyboard mash for enough TPS'
What is trying to be said here is that threat caps should be a thing of the past for any decent tank. They instead want tanks to be survival/personal skill orientated. Tanks will have to on the ball for survival buttons and aware of the situation for add pick, aggro drops, soft enrages etc. Personally I think this is due to their dissatisfaction on forcing people to either threat cap their dps and fail to beat an enrage timer or be so squishy that it increases the chance for the tank to go splat from a bad string of hits.
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Postby Angelus » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:48 am

Not really, it just means that we really kicked that much @$$. People that actually took the time to learn about the tanks usually ended up liking Paladin tanks just as much and sometimes even more than warriors.

Or it means that the majority of warriors are below-average players. Either way I'm happy.
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Re: grr

Postby Morganim » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:59 am

Majiben wrote:What is trying to be said here is that threat caps should be a thing of the past for any decent tank. They instead want tanks to be survival/personal skill orientated. Tanks will have to on the ball for survival buttons and aware of the situation for add pick, aggro drops, soft enrages etc. Personally I think this is due to their dissatisfaction on forcing people to either threat cap their dps and fail to beat an enrage timer or be so squishy that it increases the chance for the tank to go splat from a bad string of hits.


But thats just the thing.
IMO a good tank could already do all those things + not threat cap there DPS. That was the difference in quality between a good sunwell tank and a 4/5 mh 4/9 BT tank.
Now there just dumbing the process down, it was always something to be proud of being a good tank, but with these changes i cant see anyone ever having trouble tanking ever again. It was always fun to have competitions with my DPS to see who could catch me first on a boss, especially farm content, or see how hard i had to push myself to think of new ways to keep ahead of them. I never had to revert to sanctity aura spec (which i loathe) and never had to make a spell damage only set etc
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Re: grr

Postby majiben » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:21 am

Morganim wrote:
Majiben wrote:What is trying to be said here is that threat caps should be a thing of the past for any decent tank. They instead want tanks to be survival/personal skill orientated. Tanks will have to on the ball for survival buttons and aware of the situation for add pick, aggro drops, soft enrages etc. Personally I think this is due to their dissatisfaction on forcing people to either threat cap their dps and fail to beat an enrage timer or be so squishy that it increases the chance for the tank to go splat from a bad string of hits.


But thats just the thing.
IMO a good tank could already do all those things + not threat cap there DPS. That was the difference in quality between a good sunwell tank and a 4/5 mh 4/9 BT tank.
Now there just dumbing the process down, it was always something to be proud of being a good tank, but with these changes i cant see anyone ever having trouble tanking ever again. It was always fun to have competitions with my DPS to see who could catch me first on a boss, especially farm content, or see how hard i had to push myself to think of new ways to keep ahead of them. I never had to revert to sanctity aura spec (which i loathe) and never had to make a spell damage only set etc
Tell me how brutalis is not a dumbed down fight from the perspective of What the tank has manage? Compare to it to Hex lord for instance where you have to frequently move him, interupt him, get rid of his buffs, watch for thorns, manage resources, Pots, healthstones, trinkets, cooldowns, placements, cleansings, snake traps and his adds. The point is there will be fewer tank and spank fights that are dps races limited by the tank output.
Last edited by majiben on Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nakati » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:28 am

I doubt this is anything to think much about, this will be a good change. I know many that do tank if/when they have to but they dislike to gimp themself with a prot spec (we all know it sucks for solo-play and pvp) and even more so they dislike the fact that its so stressful for them to keep aggro from other people. Thats the aggro pullers fault in the first place but guess who gets the blame.. This change and the fact that dps warriors and ret/holy paladins will now be able to tank decently in normal dungeons at least means there will be more tanks available for everybody witch I belive was the reason behind most of theese changes. The lack of tanks is just ridicilous on some servers.

There is new raids and new challenges that awaits us. Tanking is not just about TPS alone and there will still be things that seperate a great tank from a bad one.
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Re: grr

Postby Consecrator » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:31 am

Tell me how brutalis is not a dumbed down fight from the perspective of What the tank has manage? Compare to it to Hex lord for instance where you have to frequently move him, interupt him, get rid of his debuffs, watch for thorns, manage resources, Pots, healthstones, trinkets, cooldowns, placements, cleansings, snake traps and his adds. The point is there will be fewer tank and spank fights that are dps races limited by the tank output.[/quote]

This is perfectly said. They mean, IMO, that there are much less stanmdning still fights and much more moving around fights. In the movement fights the warlocks cant just sit there and spam shadow bolts all day and threat cap cause they will actually have to move out of the way of somthing. The movement fights IMO are much more fun and complex. Alot more people can stand there and tab their rotation but not as many will move and react when needed in order to not cause deaths in a raid.
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Postby steadypal » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:04 am

can u still tell the difference between good and bad tanks? or is it like OP said, faceroll and let the dps win?
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Postby Huon » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:49 am

But threat generation is only a smart part of a good tank.

-threat
-Awareness
-reflexes
-use of trinkets/CD skills
-moving while tanking
-etc.

Removing the threat component from determining a good tank wont make the dumb ones taunt off healers when they get aggro at the back.
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Re: grr

Postby Obrimos » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:57 am

Morganim wrote:
All the tanking classes are now suitable as a main tank and their threat has been greatly increased to make fights more fun, fights are now more about skills than dying because of a random aggro.


and did that make no sense at all to anyone else as well?
i read it as 'we completely removed any skill in tanking as a retarded hampster can now keyboard mash for enough TPS'


Threat is no longer an issue.

Know what that means?

Positioning, movement, control, unique mechanics (Boxes!), taunting and trade offs, and multi-boss control (R&J, Illidari Council, High King, etc) are going to be what we need to focus on.

Welcome to the new WoW; mechanics are more about unique, intresting, strange, and "WTF? HOW THE HELL DID HE DO THAT!" fights than "Cause as much threat as you can, just keep the tank healed" fights.
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Postby Jasari » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:03 am

Threat generation was always the most boring part of tanking. It's really no different from DPSing... you figure out the optimal rotation/priority and spam it. I rolled my pally because I was bored of DPSing on my shadow priest, so I'm not disappointed that they somewhat trivialized threat rotations. I'm just hoping that this means there will be a bigger focus on decision making when tanking - moving the boss around, picking up and add, etc. Also, it was always annoying as a DPS to be threat capped, which happened a lot as a caster during T4->T5 content due to OP craftable cloth gear. There was simply no way a T4 geared tank could out threat a FSW/Spell Strike shadow priest and it made being a DPS class even more boring. Boss fights shouldn't be about playing the threat game, it should be about strategy and execution.
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Re: grr

Postby Dianora » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:46 am

Morganim wrote:just wondering

Paladins were decent off-tanks but not great main tanks, this is fixed in WotLK. Paladins should focus on protection gear instead of spell power.


Did that anger anyone else?


Proof once again that no one @ Blizzard Developement team really raid with a protection paladin. We're terrible off tank. We run out of mana without getting hit.

Morganim wrote:
All the tanking classes are now suitable as a main tank and their threat has been greatly increased to make fights more fun, fights are now more about skills than dying because of a random aggro.


and did that make no sense at all to anyone else as well?
i read it as 'we completely removed any skill in tanking as a retarded hampster can now keyboard mash for enough TPS'


it still take a bit of timing to mash keyboard correctly.
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Postby Somrael » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:50 am

Boss fights shouldn't be about playing the threat game, it should be about strategy and execution.


Agreed. It will make things a lot more exciting for DPS classes; if Blizzcon's answers to mage concerns are true, they're going to have some serious muscles to flex, and no one likes feeling hindered. I think that this will also make gear selection more interesting for some, and simpler for others. Now we can focus on stamina vs. mitigation, and not have to worry about finding some nook to stuff spell power into. One of the edges that warriors always had is that they had fewer stat needs and so could have more focused, and ultimately more efficient, gear. We can close the gap with +spell damage no longer an issue.
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Postby Io.Draco » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:04 am

Sigh , the only thing that held us back as a tanks was that , as quote of a Nessaj from Nihilum

The problem with protection paladins is not their tanking realy , its that they offer no comparable buffs to what warriors and druids give to the raid


At the time he posted it I didn't take quite seriously but now after almost 2 years of tanking I realize how true he was

What do we offer at live atm as tanks to the raid? buff wise? a blessing that reduces dmg you take by a very small ammount , and when you block it does some holy dmg

What do warriors give? Sunders , Demo Shout , Thunderclap
What do druids give? Combat rez , Inervate

Admitely while what warriors and druids give CAN be done by dps warriors and other druids , it is of a advantage to the raid to bring the tanks wich grant those buffs , a pala offers next to squat

And that my friends is the BIGGEST reason progress guilds didn't take us in Kara/Gruul/Maggy/SSC/TK , although at a few bosses our aoe tanking did provide a huge advantage enough to overcome what the other tanking classes gave to the raid

Now with WOLTK blizzard actualy is making to one of the most NEEDED classes buff wise ( sanctuary )
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