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Slow vs fast weapon in WotLK

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Slow vs fast weapon in WotLK

Postby Embher » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:42 pm

THis guy on the BETA forums is saying Paladins want a slow weapon for "character sheet dmg", even on 10/9 after the HotR change to be independenet of weapon speed. Is he not completely incorrect?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... sid=2000#1

Advantages to fast weapon
*Judgement of light will proc more with fast weapon speed
*SoV is independent of speed, as I will point out below, but the ramp up of applying the stacks will go faster with a fast weapon because a stack of it applies on each melee hit (also hammer of the righteous will apply it).


Advantages of slow weapon

*Parries from a boss are lowered. The only parries from a boss would be from Auto attack of the weapon and Hammer of the righteous becuase it can be dodged, parried, as opposed to the rest of our abilities which are considered spells and can be spell-missed or spell-resisted.

Factors independent of speed
*Hammer of the righteous http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53595 is not affected by weapon speed. One may pick either a fast or slow weapon without worrying about affecting HotR damage. It is based on "main hand damage per second", which makes it independent of speed.
*SoV is now the tankign seal of choice, because it scales better with STR/AP than Spell dmg compared to SoR, (both seals have coefficients of both spell dmg and AP ) and our gear has changed to STR and tanking weapon is encouraged to be a tanking melee weapon instead of spell dmg. SoV ticks every 3 once teh stacks are applied to the npc. Once the stacks are up there, and you judge every cd, the stacks stay in Patch 3 /WoTLk (compared to buggy behavior in live) and speed does not affect the long term dmg/s of this seal.
*WHere is the dmg element that he is talking about? Given same weapon dps, there is no difference in dmg to my knowledge.

Personally, I like the constant procs from judgement of light. While I have not derived it, I think the judgement of light procs outweigh the dmg from parries from auto attack and Hammer of the Righteous.
However, to me, you could pick either fast or slow weapon for either advantage on dmg-intake. THough, I do not see a dmg difference given same weapon speed after the HotR was fixed to base on "weapon dmg per second", thus independent of weapon speed.
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Postby majiben » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:15 pm

Toss in that in the event of boss or trash that blocks a slow weapon will do more white dps.
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Postby Embher » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:21 pm

Majiben wrote:Toss in that in the event of boss or trash that blocks a slow weapon will do more white dps.


That is very good point.

What bosses wear a shield and actually block?
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:24 pm

Embher wrote:
Majiben wrote:Toss in that in the event of boss or trash that blocks a slow weapon will do more white dps.


That is very good point.

What bosses wear a shield and actually block?


None but all. That's probably not exactly right, but a lot of mobs block and wearing shields doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.
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Postby majiben » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:44 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Embher wrote:
Majiben wrote:Toss in that in the event of boss or trash that blocks a slow weapon will do more white dps.


That is very good point.

What bosses wear a shield and actually block?


None but all. That's probably not exactly right, but a lot of mobs block and wearing shields doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.
You won't notice most mobs blocking becuase they only have a low chance, likely the 5% that warriors and paladins have. A good spot to see it in effect is the shattered halls. Shattered Hand Champions have a shield block that increases block chance by 100%. When they activate this I see a lot of fully blocked hits made against them by myself.

This is just a hypothetical issue atm.
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Postby Eanin » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:03 pm

A positive thing for slow weapons is that enchants will proc more often from HotR, if you're using Mongoose.
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Postby Sharlos » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:38 pm

don't JoL/W have 4 second c/ds?
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Postby majiben » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:21 am

Sharlos wrote:don't JoL/W have 4 second c/ds?
I believe the seals are affected by the cooldown but not the judgements. The reasoning being that the judgements are weaker and raid wide.

Another possible notch in a fast weapon's belt may be the use of sharpening/wieght stones. I've heard that the added weapon damage is not normalized ie a weapon with a speed of 1.0 will benifit twice as much from a 2.0 weapon.
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Postby Noradin » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:44 am

Sharlos wrote:don't JoL/W have 4 second c/ds?


Judgements of Wisdom and Light should have a 4s CD, but its bugget at the moment.
Seal should not have a CD, since they are selfbuffs only. There is no reason to give seals a internal CD on the proc since we can't magically turn into a fury warrior or a rogue and benefit from their insane hit frequency. The same goes for arkanmages an AM (They actually gain 500 mana per cast of AM even if they still wear blues).
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Postby Candiru » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:47 am

Slow weapons do more SoV Instant hit and SoR damage, due to HotR proccing seals.

If we use SoV this is negligible though. With SoR, weapon speed wants to be as slow as possible.

Oh, and the "paladin are better with slow weapons" from the linked post is him comparing is to Warrior/DK with those weapons. We will do better with the slow weapons than they will, since we are pretty much agnostic towards weapon speeds.
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Postby Makaijin » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:20 am

We're still not sure if the 4 sec CD removal on judgements is a bug or not. But as for the seals, aren't they on a PPM? If it is on a PPM wouldn't a slower weapon benefit more?
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Postby Snake-Aes » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:34 am

To be frank you can ignore both benefits you listed for fast weapons. THe difference between a 1.4 and a 2.6 weapon in stacking sov is of about 1 gcd. Judgment of Light/Wisdom have an internal cooldown.
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Postby Embher » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:42 am

Candiru wrote:Slow weapons do more SoV Instant hit and SoR damage, due to HotR proccing seals.

If we use SoV this is negligible though. With SoR, weapon speed wants to be as slow as possible.

Oh, and the "paladin are better with slow weapons" from the linked post is him comparing is to Warrior/DK with those weapons. We will do better with the slow weapons than they will, since we are pretty much agnostic towards weapon speeds.


SoV ticks every 3s for 15s... What are you talkinga bout SoV doign instant hit from HotR? SoR ya does bigger dmg per hit, but who cares about SoR.
HotR is an ability you use outside the seal, it has 6s cooldown. It can proc an SoV stack but it is not based on weapon dmg per hit, its independent of speed now.
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Postby Embher » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:43 am

Makaijin wrote:We're still not sure if the 4 sec CD removal on judgements is a bug or not. But as for the seals, aren't they on a PPM? If it is on a PPM wouldn't a slower weapon benefit more?


What I heard is the Judggement of light has an umlimited number of procs while Judgemetn of wisdom has a limit every 4s. This is the advantage that I am talking about with fast weapons.


The second advantage about ramp up time, I really don't have much concern for, but I listed it to be complete.
Last edited by Embher on Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Candiru » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:45 am

Embher wrote:SoV ticks every 3s for 15s... What are you talkinga bout SoV doign instant hit from HotR? SoR ya does bigger dmg per hit, but who cares about SoR.
HotR is an ability you use outside the seal, it has 6s cooldown. It can proc an SoV stack but it is not based on weapon dmg per hit, its independent of speed now.


SoV does X% of spelldamage * WS when you hit with a full stack.

This means that the instant attack from HotR SoV proc does more damage the slower your weapon.

Since the damage done from this is tiny, its not a big deal, however, and is probably not worth consideration.
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