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diminishing returns on parry to?

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diminishing returns on parry to?

Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:20 pm

i knew it was drastic for dodge and yes yes it is, it sucks, almost knocks the moroes trinket use in half for me


i didnt think it affected parry tho and i tried the parry trinket off zul'jin and it lose .46% parry... hmmmmm


and it doesnt look like BR is affected


i was surprised cause my parry is low and it is also getting DR on it... hmmmm

so stack BR instead of dodge/parry eh?
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Re: diminishing returns on parry to?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:59 pm

steadypal wrote:i knew it was drastic for dodge and yes yes it is, it sucks, almost knocks the moroes trinket use in half for me


i didnt think it affected parry tho and i tried the parry trinket off zul'jin and it lose .46% parry... hmmmmm


and it doesnt look like BR is affected


i was surprised cause my parry is low and it is also getting DR on it... hmmmm

so stack BR instead of dodge/parry eh?


Isn't DR on avoidance basically stealing Ilevel from tanking gear that has it? It seems like a bad mechanic to me. Also, I think that on use trinkets should be exempt, but oh well.
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Re: diminishing returns on parry to?

Postby moduspwnens » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:00 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
steadypal wrote:i knew it was drastic for dodge and yes yes it is, it sucks, almost knocks the moroes trinket use in half for me


i didnt think it affected parry tho and i tried the parry trinket off zul'jin and it lose .46% parry... hmmmmm


and it doesnt look like BR is affected


i was surprised cause my parry is low and it is also getting DR on it... hmmmm

so stack BR instead of dodge/parry eh?


Isn't DR on avoidance basically stealing Ilevel from tanking gear that has it? It seems like a bad mechanic to me. Also, I think that on use trinkets should be exempt, but oh well.


Yeah, I suppose better itemization in the first place would be a better choice, but hey, it's better than Sunwell Radiance.
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Re: diminishing returns on parry to?

Postby Embher » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:05 pm

steadypal wrote:i knew it was drastic for dodge and yes yes it is, it sucks, almost knocks the moroes trinket use in half for me


i didnt think it affected parry tho and i tried the parry trinket off zul'jin and it lose .46% parry... hmmmmm


and it doesnt look like BR is affected


i was surprised cause my parry is low and it is also getting DR on it... hmmmm

so stack BR instead of dodge/parry eh?


What's your current dodge %? What happens when you use moroes on beta or PTR? Are you on PTR or BETA? WHere does it go to on real?
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Re: diminishing returns on parry to?

Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:48 pm

Embher wrote:
steadypal wrote:i knew it was drastic for dodge and yes yes it is, it sucks, almost knocks the moroes trinket use in half for me


i didnt think it affected parry tho and i tried the parry trinket off zul'jin and it lose .46% parry... hmmmmm


and it doesnt look like BR is affected


i was surprised cause my parry is low and it is also getting DR on it... hmmmm

so stack BR instead of dodge/parry eh?


What's your current dodge %? What happens when you use moroes on beta or PTR? Are you on PTR or BETA? WHere does it go to on real?



31 % dodge use moroes trinket get 8 dodge instead of 15.8


on ptr


i never read dr on parry tho
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Postby majiben » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:49 pm

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=14976&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

For you too here is the thread on DR. Also has a link to EJ on the formula.
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Postby Embher » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:59 pm

Ok, let me attempt to summarize from this elitistjerks post:


7. The DR formula:

\frac{1}{x'} = \frac{1}{c}+\frac{k}{x}}

x' is the diminished stat before converting to IEEE754.
x is the stat before diminishing returns.
c is the cap of the stat, and changes with class.
k is is a value that changes with class.

k C_p 1/C_p C_d 1/C_d Lv80 Dodge/Agi Lv80 Agi/1%Dodge Base Dodge
Warrior 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.013600 73.52941176 3.463600
Paladin 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.019200 52.08333333 3.268500

Deathknight 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.013600 73.52941176 0.758000

Druid 0.9720 0 0 116.890707 0.008555 0.024000 41.66666667 4.951000
.
..


D'=Total Dodge% after DR
D_r=Dodge from Defense and Dodge Rating before DR
D_b=Base dodge (This is what you have with 0 Agility, independent of level, can be looked up in my first post)
A=Total Agility
A_b=Base Agility (This is what you have with no gear on)
A_g=Total Agility - Base Agility

Let d be the Dodge/Agi (before DR) value we are going to calculate(this value is constant for a given level and class).

\frac{1}{x'} = \frac{1}{C_d}+\frac{k}{x}}

x'=D'-D_b-A_b*d or D'=Dodge% on character sheet=x'+D_b+A_b*d
x=A_g*d+D_r



Ok, using the equation and arranging it to find x' diminished value comes out to:
x'= 1
_________________

(1/c + k/x)


Ok, using these constants for paladins and assuming he means C_p is c for parry and C_d is c for dodge, functions of x to x' are

x'd= 1
__________________

(0.011347 + 0.9560/x)

x'p= 1
___________________

(0.021275 + 0.9560/x)


Moroes trinket theoretical on use value is derived as followed. He reported that the 300 dodge rating increased his dodge from 31% to 39% insstead of 31+15.8%=46%


According to his examples, x and x' are % values and they are % contributions from GEAR ONLY.


so Total Diminished Dodge from gear and base =31%
Dodge (base)=3.2+77 base agi/25+5%talent=~11
Dodge (base) % = ~11 %

Diminished Dodge from gear = 31%-11%=20%
Diminished Dodge % from gear =20%
which implies Undiminished dodge% from gear=x=25% when x'=20%
Undiminished dodge% from gear=25%
but
Dodge from gear and moroes 300 on use=25%+300/18.9=14%+15.87%=40.87%
Undiminished Dodge from gear and moroes 300 on use=40.87%

x'd= 1
__________________

(0.011347 + 0.9560/40.87% )
Diminished dodge from gear and on-use Moroes (without base)=x'd= 28.78%

Diminished Dodge % with moroes =26.3%+base dodge%=28.78.3%+11%=39.78%
Diminished Dodge % with moroes =39.78%
which is what he found on PTR

Simplifying the equations for finding the increased % when changing gear:


Undiminished Dodge % From Gear Only=
[(Defense rating with original gear)*defense modifier+(Dodge rating with original gear)/dodge modifier]+
[Increased Defense rating from the gear change*defense modifier+Increased Dodge rating from the gear change/dodge modifier]

You cannot take the character sheet %-base dodge % because it really does show effects of diminishing returns.

where dodge modifier converts to dodge rating to dodge%, e.g,. 18.9 at 70
where defense modifier converts to defendse rating to dodge%, e.g,. 0.04 at 70

Diminished Dodge% from gear only=
x'd= 1
__________________

(0.011347 + 0.9560/Undiminished Dodge%From Gear Only)
Last edited by Embher on Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:54 am, edited 15 times in total.
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Re: diminishing returns on parry to?

Postby Elsie » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:18 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
steadypal wrote:i knew it was drastic for dodge and yes yes it is, it sucks, almost knocks the moroes trinket use in half for me


i didnt think it affected parry tho and i tried the parry trinket off zul'jin and it lose .46% parry... hmmmmm


and it doesnt look like BR is affected


i was surprised cause my parry is low and it is also getting DR on it... hmmmm

so stack BR instead of dodge/parry eh?
Isn't DR on avoidance basically stealing Ilevel from tanking gear that has it? It seems like a bad mechanic to me. Also, I think that on use trinkets should be exempt, but oh well.

Depends. It could just mean they can safely put gem slots on gear without having to worry about something down the road where people stack tons of dodge rating gems. I don't see it as stealing item level. I see it as a curved PPF (as it should be).
(production possibility frontier line... cost of one good to produce another... in this case one stat or another).

It also makes them add in non-tier gear that lets people 'shore up' an area of mitigation without worrying about overdoing it all together. Everyone wants the 80 dodge piece right now. In wotlk you'd want the 80 dodge piece till you got the right gear to use a better overall piece.

Also... DR isn't exactly all-or-nothing. It's just reduced efficiency. 100 dodge rating giving 5% dodge is better than, say, 200 block value. Now if it was 2.5% dodge, would it beat 200 block value? 1.25%? etc..
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Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:22 pm

again just thought dodge was affected, not parry

and BR seems to not be affected by DR
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Postby majiben » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:38 pm

steadypal wrote:again just thought dodge was affected, not parry

and BR seems to not be affected by DR
Miss is also affected by DR. BR seems to be the only one not affected.
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Postby Worldie » Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:43 am

They left BR outside DR since you don't get unhittable by stacking BR, and you cannot gem/enchant for BR, and most of all, nontanking classes cannot benefit from BR :)
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:54 am

Majiben wrote:
steadypal wrote:again just thought dodge was affected, not parry

and BR seems to not be affected by DR
Miss is also affected by DR. BR seems to be the only one not affected.


Havent seen this proven yet...if it is, no one has published what the miss cap is...

But BR is definitely not affected by diminishing returns
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Postby Embher » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:12 am

Here is the effectiveness of adding another 1% dodge from dodge rating or defense every 1%, e.g., adding 18.9 dodge rating to your gear.

I'll give you an example. Say your character sheet says 27.0% dodge. That is the diminished dodge%. (We have proven that dodge rating increases to gear actually show diminished changeson character sheet. We are convinced the character sheet dodge% is indeed the diminished total dodge%=basedodge%+diminished dodge% from gear)

Now, we know that 18.9 dodge rating produces 1% dodge undiminished.
If we added 18.9 at level 70 or 1% undiminished dodge from a gear piece, it would worth really only 0.7%. That is how you read this chart.

19 16.2 27.2 0.703

What is interesting is that if you have 100% undiminished dodge from gear, your total diminished dodge is 58.8% and the effect of another 1% undiminished dodge from gear is only 0.2%.
At 20% total undiminished dodge on character sheet, each 1% undiminished dodge% is worth 0.8;
at 30%......... 0.64;
at 40%......... 0.477;



Dodge % from gear
Diminished dodge from gear
Total dodge % after diminishing effect
Worth of 1% dodge contribution from defense or dodge

1 1.0 12.0
2 2.0 13.0 1.010
3 3.0 14.0 0.987
4 4.0 15.0 0.964
5 4.9 15.9 0.943
6 5.9 16.9 0.922
7 6.8 17.8 0.902
8 7.6 18.6 0.882
9 8.5 19.5 0.863
10 9.4 20.4 0.845
11 10.2 21.2 0.827
12 11.0 22.0 0.810
13 11.8 22.8 0.793
14 12.6 23.6 0.777
15 13.3 24.3 0.761
16 14.1 25.1 0.746
17 14.8 25.8 0.731
18 15.5 26.5 0.717
19 16.2 27.2 0.703
20 16.9 27.9 0.690
21 17.6 28.6 0.677
22 18.2 29.2 0.664
23 18.9 29.9 0.652
24 19.5 30.5 0.640
25 20.2 31.2 0.628
26 20.8 31.8 0.616
27 21.4 32.4 0.605
28 22.0 33.0 0.595
29 22.6 33.6 0.584
30 23.1 34.1 0.574
31 23.7 34.7 0.564
32 24.3 35.3 0.554
33 24.8 35.8 0.545
34 25.3 36.3 0.536
35 25.9 36.9 0.527
36 26.4 37.4 0.518
37 26.9 37.9 0.509
38 27.4 38.4 0.501
39 27.9 38.9 0.493
40 28.4 39.4 0.485
41 28.8 39.8 0.477
42 29.3 40.3 0.470
43 29.8 40.8 0.462
44 30.2 41.2 0.455
45 30.7 41.7 0.448
46 31.1 42.1 0.441
47 31.6 42.6 0.434
48 32.0 43.0 0.428
49 32.4 43.4 0.421
50 32.8 43.8 0.415
51 33.2 44.2 0.409
52 33.6 44.6 0.403
53 34.0 45.0 0.397
54 34.4 45.4 0.391
55 34.8 45.8 0.386
56 35.2 46.2 0.380
57 35.6 46.6 0.375
58 35.9 46.9 0.370
59 36.3 47.3 0.364
60 36.7 47.7 0.359
61 37.0 48.0 0.354
62 37.4 48.4 0.350
63 37.7 48.7 0.345
64 38.0 49.0 0.340
65 38.4 49.4 0.336
66 38.7 49.7 0.331
67 39.0 50.0 0.327
68 39.4 50.4 0.322
69 39.7 50.7 0.318
70 40.0 51.0 0.314
71 40.3 51.3 0.310
72 40.6 51.6 0.306
73 40.9 51.9 0.302
74 41.2 52.2 0.298
75 41.5 52.5 0.295
76 41.8 52.8 0.291
77 42.1 53.1 0.287
78 42.4 53.4 0.284
79 42.6 53.6 0.280
80 42.9 53.9 0.277
81 43.2 54.2 0.274
82 43.5 54.5 0.270
83 43.7 54.7 0.267
84 44.0 55.0 0.264
85 44.3 55.3 0.261
86 44.5 55.5 0.258
87 44.8 55.8 0.255
88 45.0 56.0 0.252
89 45.3 56.3 0.249
90 45.5 56.5 0.246
91 45.8 56.8 0.243
92 46.0 57.0 0.240
93 46.2 57.2 0.238
94 46.5 57.5 0.235
95 46.7 57.7 0.232
96 46.9 57.9 0.230
97 47.2 58.2 0.227
98 47.4 58.4 0.225
99 47.6 58.6 0.222
100 47.8 58.8 0.220
Last edited by Embher on Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Worldie » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:16 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Majiben wrote:
steadypal wrote:again just thought dodge was affected, not parry

and BR seems to not be affected by DR
Miss is also affected by DR. BR seems to be the only one not affected.


Havent seen this proven yet...if it is, no one has published what the miss cap is...

But BR is definitely not affected by diminishing returns

The defense, parry and dodge mouseover tooltip all states "Before DR". Block doesnt.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:22 am

Worldie wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Majiben wrote:
steadypal wrote:again just thought dodge was affected, not parry

and BR seems to not be affected by DR
Miss is also affected by DR. BR seems to be the only one not affected.


Havent seen this proven yet...if it is, no one has published what the miss cap is...

But BR is definitely not affected by diminishing returns

The defense, parry and dodge mouseover tooltip all states "Before DR". Block doesnt.


Granted, and not disagreeing...just saying the only evidence we have that miss is affected by DR is a post from a blue and it wasnt specific.

There is no current way I am aware of to determine your chance to be hit via the WoW API. So determining that there actually is DR on Miss chance from defense is pretty much impossible at present.
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