My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

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Postby jedimatt » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:11 am

On a side note, it was said at Blizzcon that when they get the dual-spec mechanic, it is supposed to switch your hotkeys and your glyphs too. So you'll actually be able to have 2 sets of glyphs, it sounds like. Yay!
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Postby Splug » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:26 am

Khayne wrote:I´d just wish we´d have some semi-defensive mitigational glyphs like that bv glyph that warriors get.

i dont care if it´s an +armor proc chance when devo aura on and you get hit.

+resistances when resistance aura on (can be a number or +% of total resistance)

block value after some shield move (holy shield/Shor)

parry chance after weapon move (would be nice since this would be useful for more specs attleast in pvp, just make it proc after both cs&hotr, you´ll allways only have one anyway so can be balanced with thinking only 1)

make holy shield cd refresh after redoubt proc or make redoubt also increase BV abit on proc (in tight aoe situation you will lose all holy shield charges, get redoubt proc and when you see those go low you could then use holy shield again immediately for more aoe threat&blocking mitigation)

something to give abit choice to get some mitigation instead of only +threat on AS/Judgement/SoV/SoR or more mana/cheapo spells on SoB/allways/SoW
Reduced chance to parrygib yourself would be pretty cool too. They could probably tie that into a seal or something.

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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:27 am

Splug wrote:Reduced chance to parrygib yourself would be pretty cool too. They could probably tie that into a seal or something.

-Splug

I see what you did there.
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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Kelaan » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:50 pm

Warcraft wrote:(TL;DR: CRAP.)


I disagree. For tanking, I see the following:

Awesome:
Glyph of Righteous Defense (Major) : now I don't need to itemize for +hit.
Glyph of Seal of Vengeance (Major) : also, I don't get dodged/parried as much. Awesome.

Not Crap:
Glyph of Avenger's Shield (Major) : Single target threat. I still like 3-targets, though.
Glyph of Judgement (Major): Moar threat.

So, if I need a single Shield toss to prevent bugged pulling from super-jumps, I take that. If not, I get more threat. Seems like a very clear "use this for tanking" set of glyphs. Yes, I'd love a single-target-taunt glyph... but honestly RD has saved aoe'ers from multiple adds enough that I kinda like it. I miss it on my druid. I'll want single target taunt on 4 Horsemen. :(


For ret, I'd pick:

1) Glyph of Seal of Blood or Glyph of Seal of Command
2) Glyph of Crusader Strike
3) one of:
- Glyph of Judgement (bread and butter DPS)
- Glyph of Hammer of Justice (solo/pvp crutch)
- Glyph of Avenging Wrath : ret's execute?

These just look like clear "you want these if you're specced this way" choices. Yes, I'd rather it were baseline, but ... meh. I can find 3 (or more) glyphs that I like for any of the specs, and don't really feel like i'm losing or missing a lot.
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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:57 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Warcraft wrote:(TL;DR: CRAP.)


I disagree. For tanking, I see the following:

Awesome:
Glyph of Righteous Defense (Major) : now I don't need to itemize for +hit.
Glyph of Seal of Vengeance (Major) : also, I don't get dodged/parried as much. Awesome.

Not Crap:
Glyph of Avenger's Shield (Major) : Single target threat. I still like 3-targets, though.
Glyph of Judgement (Major): Moar threat.

So, if I need a single Shield toss to prevent bugged pulling from super-jumps, I take that. If not, I get more threat. Seems like a very clear "use this for tanking" set of glyphs. Yes, I'd love a single-target-taunt glyph... but honestly RD has saved aoe'ers from multiple adds enough that I kinda like it. I miss it on my druid. I'll want single target taunt on 4 Horsemen. :(


For ret, I'd pick:

1) Glyph of Seal of Blood or Glyph of Seal of Command
2) Glyph of Crusader Strike
3) one of:
- Glyph of Judgement (bread and butter DPS)
- Glyph of Hammer of Justice (solo/pvp crutch)
- Glyph of Avenging Wrath : ret's execute?

These just look like clear "you want these if you're specced this way" choices. Yes, I'd rather it were baseline, but ... meh. I can find 3 (or more) glyphs that I like for any of the specs, and don't really feel like i'm losing or missing a lot.


I think the crap comment comes from all the extra threat glyphs versus all (zero) the extra mitigation glyphs.
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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Kilthanas » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:00 pm

Warcraft wrote:CRAP. Hammer of Wrath is to finish off runners. What kind of idiot pops Avenging Wrath when the target is running away?


I use it all the time when bosses are below 20% health. Its even better now as instant cast. I'll be spamming it. That said it is pretty situational since wings may or may not be back up by then, but for me it usually is. This is basically making our dmg output go insane when the boss drops into hammer range. Clearly you're thinking about mob tanking where I use this ability very rarely. Hammer shines on boss fights IMO.
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:06 pm

I haven't been able to get ahold of a glyph of blocking to test anything with; the beta AH's are spotty at best. Does anyone know if it includes BV from strength, talents, etc? If not, it's only going to be <100 block value... which probably reduces boss damage by less than 10 expertise skill. It'll be a bigger difference on multi-target trash, but from a throughput perspective vs heavy single targets expertise should come out ahead.

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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Kilthanas » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:26 pm

Kelaan wrote:Glyph of Righteous Defense (Major) : now I don't need to itemize for +hit.


I don't know about that. With the loss of precision a pally who isn't gearing at all for hit (and its a lot harder too now unless you've already got a bunch of warrior gear) is going to get a bunch of melee and spell misses and resists aren't they? Despite threat being higher this patch, that does not mean its irrelevant.

Has anybody crunched the numbers about how much hit we'd like come the expansion? I'm sitting at a little over 80 I believe but could switch a belt out for a higher mitigation one and lose a little. Can somebody point me to the appropriate thread?
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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Obrimos » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:46 pm

Kilthanas wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Glyph of Righteous Defense (Major) : now I don't need to itemize for +hit.


I don't know about that. With the loss of precision a pally who isn't gearing at all for hit (and its a lot harder too now unless you've already got a bunch of warrior gear) is going to get a bunch of melee and spell misses and resists aren't they? Despite threat being higher this patch, that does not mean its irrelevant.

Has anybody crunched the numbers about how much hit we'd like come the expansion? I'm sitting at a little over 80 I believe but could switch a belt out for a higher mitigation one and lose a little. Can somebody point me to the appropriate thread?


I don't have any Hit and I never specced for Precision while tanking and it's never been much of an issue.

Less so mid-fight with SoCorruption.
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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Kilthanas » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:51 pm

Obrimos wrote:
Kilthanas wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Glyph of Righteous Defense (Major) : now I don't need to itemize for +hit.


I don't know about that. With the loss of precision a pally who isn't gearing at all for hit (and its a lot harder too now unless you've already got a bunch of warrior gear) is going to get a bunch of melee and spell misses and resists aren't they? Despite threat being higher this patch, that does not mean its irrelevant.

Has anybody crunched the numbers about how much hit we'd like come the expansion? I'm sitting at a little over 80 I believe but could switch a belt out for a higher mitigation one and lose a little. Can somebody point me to the appropriate thread?


I don't have any Hit and I never specced for Precision while tanking and it's never been much of an issue.

Less so mid-fight with SoCorruption.


Hmmmm. I assume you aren't tanking for tier 6 dps? Cause I noticed the difference in resists between 3/3 precision and 2/3 precision. My dpsers used to be capped in fights like Gorefiend.

I'm assuming we'll need some at least. Anybody?
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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Obrimos » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:10 pm

Kilthanas wrote:
Obrimos wrote:
Kilthanas wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Glyph of Righteous Defense (Major) : now I don't need to itemize for +hit.


I don't know about that. With the loss of precision a pally who isn't gearing at all for hit (and its a lot harder too now unless you've already got a bunch of warrior gear) is going to get a bunch of melee and spell misses and resists aren't they? Despite threat being higher this patch, that does not mean its irrelevant.

Has anybody crunched the numbers about how much hit we'd like come the expansion? I'm sitting at a little over 80 I believe but could switch a belt out for a higher mitigation one and lose a little. Can somebody point me to the appropriate thread?


I don't have any Hit and I never specced for Precision while tanking and it's never been much of an issue.

Less so mid-fight with SoCorruption.


Hmmmm. I assume you aren't tanking for tier 6 dps? Cause I noticed the difference in resists between 3/3 precision and 2/3 precision. My dpsers used to be capped in fights like Gorefiend.

I'm assuming we'll need some at least. Anybody?


No, I'm not. I've got T6 DPS when I tank ZA most of the time, but my guild doesn't have 25 raiders.

I doubt it'll be an issue until we start getting Hit on our gear anyway. I really doubt we'll have to stack it.
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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Kilthanas » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:21 pm

Obrimos wrote:I doubt it'll be an issue until we start getting Hit on our gear anyway. I really doubt we'll have to stack it.


Well my guild is still trying to finish BT and maybe give sunwell a try. So it may be an issue for me immediately until Nov 13.

I don't see why we wouldn't have to stack some of it. All of our abilities can miss right?
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Re: My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

Postby Obrimos » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:40 pm

Kilthanas wrote:
Obrimos wrote:I doubt it'll be an issue until we start getting Hit on our gear anyway. I really doubt we'll have to stack it.


Well my guild is still trying to finish BT and maybe give sunwell a try. So it may be an issue for me immediately until Nov 13.

I don't see why we wouldn't have to stack some of it. All of our abilities can miss right?


At the base miss rate, yes. We don't have to contend with things like lacking rage from missing a la Arms and Fury warriors or the DPS hit that rogues suffer from miss due to dual-wielding.

While is important in some respects, it isn't as important and we're getting Hit as part of our 'other tanking stats' anyway.

I just don't think we'll have to go out and look for that much of it. We only have to cover ~%5.6.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:48 pm

Splug wrote:I haven't been able to get ahold of a glyph of blocking to test anything with; the beta AH's are spotty at best. Does anyone know if it includes BV from strength, talents, etc? If not, it's only going to be <100 block value... which probably reduces boss damage by less than 10 expertise skill. It'll be a bigger difference on multi-target trash, but from a throughput perspective vs heavy single targets expertise should come out ahead.

-Splug


I really doubt that 10 expertise is a better mitigator than 100 block. Not every parry makes the next swing faster. You may get absolutely no mitigation effect from 10 expertise over the course of a boss fight. If you were to average it out, from the math I've seen a parry results in .24 extra swings, and we are talking about a reduction in parry of only 2.5%.
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:17 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Splug wrote:I haven't been able to get ahold of a glyph of blocking to test anything with; the beta AH's are spotty at best. Does anyone know if it includes BV from strength, talents, etc? If not, it's only going to be <100 block value... which probably reduces boss damage by less than 10 expertise skill. It'll be a bigger difference on multi-target trash, but from a throughput perspective vs heavy single targets expertise should come out ahead.

-Splug


I really doubt that 10 expertise is a better mitigator than 100 block. Not every parry makes the next swing faster. You may get absolutely no mitigation effect from 10 expertise over the course of a boss fight. If you were to average it out, from the math I've seen a parry results in .24 extra swings, and we are talking about a reduction in parry of only 2.5%.
Hrm, assuming the infamous 10k hit, 2.0 attack speed boss:

100 block value on a warrior hypothetically returns somewhere in the 1.0x-1.3x of its merit between unblocked hits and critical blocks, shield block uptime, etc. Assuming an attack every 2 seconds, this amounts to something in the ballpark of 50-65 damage per second reduced before player avoidance.

10 expertise is going to be trickier. Figuring one autoattack per 2.5 sec, and one parryable special attack every other GCD, a 1-second window has .733 attacks (repeating, of course). Assuming a parry generates an additional attack for .24 normal swing damage (functually equivalent to generating .24 extra swings), and the delta in parry chance is 2.5%, there is 0.025 * 0.733 * .24 * 10,000 = 44 damage per second saved from avoided parries before player avoidance.

This of course does not account for windfury, reckoning, faster weapon swing times, or the boss using special attacks which could also be blocked. But just for a quick overview, those numbers aren't horrifically far apart... and that's assuming 100 BV, which is more than you'd get out of the glyph in reasonable gear if it doesn't count strength or other multipliers.

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