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My synopsis of Paladin glyphs. (TL;DR: CRAP.)

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Postby Macha » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:12 am

Glyph of Avenger's Shield
Major Glyph
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 50
Use: Your Avenger's Shield hits 2 fewer targets, but for 100% more damage.
CRAP, and my most passionately hated Paladin glyph because so many people are convinced it's "not bad." I've said it before and I'll say it again. My ability to tag or snare 3 targets instead of 1 can save a raid. My ability to generate double the threat from something that only accounts for 1-2% of my total damage will NOT save a raid. Remove the target penalty. Better yet, make it pull more targets and cause less damage.


Actually, it's the best major glyph for Prot Paladins, because it turns a lackluster spell into a highly useful one.
Worse for 5mans, but absolutely awesome for actual raids. And sorry, but I don't care for a little more burst aggro for trivial heroics.

I'm taking it over the judgement glyph, because this offers me a burst aggro tool for new spawns, and will be woven into my rotation seemlessly(where it will do more aggro than the judgement glyph - judgements have to hit over 4000 damage to even get even with this additional aggro).
In other words, I get more aggro than the Judgement Glyph, and on top of it, I actually get a powerful ranged burst tool.

There was no fight in TBC where Avenger's Shield really helped, save Shade of Borekama. There is none in WOTLK.
There were many fights in TBC where single target burst saved the day - or would have made things a lot easier. Supremus, Leothras, pickup at Illidan, Muru(I'd love single target AS there), Add-pickup at various bosses(council, azgalor, anetheron, vashj...) and so on.

This is the only glyph that has a set place in my glyph slots, because it is the only glyph I really like.

I think before you scream and yell how bad the Paladin Glyphs are you should take a gander at some other class glyphs. For example, on my Resto Shaman I cannot find 3 majors I would actually use...


Stupid argument. Others having it worse doesn't mean you cannot point at bad things to get them fixed.
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Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:22 am

Glyph of Blocking
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 40
Use: Increases your block value by 10% for 10 sec after using your Shield Slam ability.

GEEEEEE let me think about this one ummmm YAAAA WTB wtf blizz

Glyph of Devastate
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 50
Use: Your Devastate ability now applies two stacks of Sunder Armor.

WOW kinda decent

Glyph of Heroic Strike
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 15
Use: You gain 10 rage when you critically strike with your Heroic Strike ability.

why cant pallies get something like that? when your judge crits, or hotr crits, we gain 2% mana ?

Glyph of Revenge
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 15
Use: After using Revenge, your next Heroic Strike costs no rage.

HMMMM WTB yaaaaa, after using an ability judge/cons = no mana?

Glyph of Last Stand
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 20
Use: Reduces the cooldown of your Last Stand ability by 3 min, but also reduces the maximum health gained by 10%.

first of all why do pallies not have last stand? c'mon high HP druids get one, and yaaa this might lower it a tad for warriors but umm 2 minute cooldown on last stand?

Glyph of Barbaric Insults
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 16
Use: Your Mocking Blow ability also taunts the target.

we dont have 1 single target taunt, they now have taunt with 20 yard range, AND this as a backup taunt? oh and forgot they have an AE taunt to

Glyph of Sunder Armor
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 15
Use: Your Sunder Armor ability affects a second nearby target.

okay, devastate procs this as well, gee give them more AE help much?
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Postby daemonym » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:25 am

i'll be taking the glyph of AS as it'll let me pretend i have a single target taunt, the threat it'll cause should be more than enough to get aggro back if somebody pulls from ya.
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Postby Dianora » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:25 am

steadypal wrote:Glyph of Last Stand
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 20
Use: Reduces the cooldown of your Last Stand ability by 3 min, but also reduces the maximum health gained by 10%.

first of all why do pallies not have last stand? c'mon high HP druids get one, and yaaa this might lower it a tad for warriors but umm 2 minute cooldown on last stand?



Ahm. Lay on Hand IS Paladin's Last Stand.
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Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:34 am

Dianora wrote:
steadypal wrote:Glyph of Last Stand
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 20
Use: Reduces the cooldown of your Last Stand ability by 3 min, but also reduces the maximum health gained by 10%.

first of all why do pallies not have last stand? c'mon high HP druids get one, and yaaa this might lower it a tad for warriors but umm 2 minute cooldown on last stand?



Ahm. Lay on Hand IS Paladin's Last Stand.


no its not, 20 min CD, and can be used on "ANYBODY"


lower the CD to 5 minutes, and make last stand castable on anybody


we can be low hp, and hit lay on hands just after we get plenty of heals, its useless, give me 30% hp additional, way better, 20% every 2 minutes is nice, we got a lotta hp in 1 click, every 20 minutes,, very very very situational
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Postby Embher » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:34 am

daemonym wrote:i'll be taking the glyph of AS as it'll let me pretend i have a single target taunt, the threat it'll cause should be more than enough to get aggro back if somebody pulls from ya.


As doesnt hit cc targets , it can be used alrady as single target taunt in most cases...unless two non-cc mobs have marginal threat and you will take aggro on both at same time.
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Postby jedimatt » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:42 am

My thoughts on Glyphs right now revolve around the whole "dual spec" thing Blizz has been talking about. Because if I have a ret/PvP spec and a prot/PvE spec, I'm going to most likely want totally different glyphs for each one. I'm hoping they encorporate that into our dual-spec system somehow.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:58 am

steadypal wrote:
Dianora wrote:
steadypal wrote:Glyph of Last Stand
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 20
Use: Reduces the cooldown of your Last Stand ability by 3 min, but also reduces the maximum health gained by 10%.

first of all why do pallies not have last stand? c'mon high HP druids get one, and yaaa this might lower it a tad for warriors but umm 2 minute cooldown on last stand?



Ahm. Lay on Hand IS Paladin's Last Stand.


no its not, 20 min CD, and can be used on "ANYBODY"


lower the CD to 5 minutes, and make last stand castable on anybody


we can be low hp, and hit lay on hands just after we get plenty of heals, its useless, give me 30% hp additional, way better, 20% every 2 minutes is nice, we got a lotta hp in 1 click, every 20 minutes,, very very very situational


....Last Stand is worthless on most anyone else.
First off its a mediocre temporary heal and HP extension.
(*On a priest its maybe a 3k hp extention / temp heal)

I LIKE that LoH restores 95-100% HP instead of 30%
I LIKE being able to cast it on anyone.
I LIKE being able to give mana to healers if the situation is desperate enough.

I LIKE LoH as it is and do not want it rebalanced against Arena and a lower cooldown.
Last edited by DeadMilliken on Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:02 am

DeadMilliken wrote:
steadypal wrote:
Dianora wrote:
steadypal wrote:Glyph of Last Stand
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 20
Use: Reduces the cooldown of your Last Stand ability by 3 min, but also reduces the maximum health gained by 10%.

first of all why do pallies not have last stand? c'mon high HP druids get one, and yaaa this might lower it a tad for warriors but umm 2 minute cooldown on last stand?



Ahm. Lay on Hand IS Paladin's Last Stand.


no its not, 20 min CD, and can be used on "ANYBODY"


lower the CD to 5 minutes, and make last stand castable on anybody


we can be low hp, and hit lay on hands just after we get plenty of heals, its useless, give me 30% hp additional, way better, 20% every 2 minutes is nice, we got a lotta hp in 1 click, every 20 minutes,, very very very situational


....Last Stand is worthless on anyone else.
First off its a mediocre temporary heal and HP extension.
(*On a priest its maybe a 3k hp extention / temp heal)

LoH by contrast is a 95-100% HP heal + mana to anyone in the raid (*for prot who generally has the highest hp). In almost any situation, LoH is better.
(*Oh sure you could "plan" to use LS early so it "might" be back up later in a fight...but that's not really using it for its purpose.)



okay we can use ours what every 3 boss attempts, warriors with last stand glyph can use it 3 times in one fight?

i think they should lower the CD to less than 10 minutes...


oh and this got sidetracked, i listed many of the warrior glyphs that are better lets not make this a lay on hands vs last stand thread
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Postby DeadMilliken » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:06 am

steadypal wrote:
okay we can use ours what every 3 boss attempts, warriors with last stand glyph can use it 3 times in one fight?

i think they should lower the CD to less than 10 minutes...


oh and this got sidetracked, i listed many of the warrior glyphs that are better lets not make this a lay on hands vs last stand thread


Name one single fight where there is planned reason and long enough to use it 3 times. Hell there's barely 1 that covers 2.

You are exaggerating that it will be needed every time its up. It will likely be needed and available 1 time per boss. LoH at worst will be available 1 time per 2 attempts, but is MUCH BETTER due to this.

Edit: I don't want LoH nerfed to the ground to balance against Arena just to have a crappy self 30% temp heal on a shorter cooldown.
(*and there is no way we will be allowed LoH and a last stand)

Edit2: Just to re-state:

100% perma heal > 30% temp heal
Free mana > 0 mana
Castable on any target to truely save them > self cast or crappy cast on other targets.

LoH is not replaceable by a consumable.
LS is replaceable by a consumable.

LoH all-around is > LS-like effects.


All this is yours if you agree (like I do) that its worth a cooldown just long enough so that it doesn't have to be balanced against Arena (20min)
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:28 am

Lets get this back on topic please.

I tend to agree that our glyphs are pretty lackluster. I don't really see any that increase mitigation at all, and I could take or leave the threat ones.
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Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:32 am

steadypal wrote:Glyph of Blocking
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 40
Use: Increases your block value by 10% for 10 sec after using your Shield Slam ability.

GEEEEEE let me think about this one ummmm YAAAA WTB wtf blizz

Glyph of Devastate
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 50
Use: Your Devastate ability now applies two stacks of Sunder Armor.

WOW kinda decent

Glyph of Heroic Strike
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 15
Use: You gain 10 rage when you critically strike with your Heroic Strike ability.

why cant pallies get something like that? when your judge crits, or hotr crits, we gain 2% mana ?

Glyph of Revenge
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 15
Use: After using Revenge, your next Heroic Strike costs no rage.

HMMMM WTB yaaaaa, after using an ability judge/cons = no mana?


Glyph of Barbaric Insults
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 16
Use: Your Mocking Blow ability also taunts the target.

we dont have 1 single target taunt, they now have taunt with 20 yard range, AND this as a backup taunt? oh and forgot they have an AE taunt to

Glyph of Sunder Armor
Major Glyph
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 15
Use: Your Sunder Armor ability affects a second nearby target.

okay, devastate procs this as well, gee give them more AE help much?



there took it out, now lets get this back on topic....


they have ALL those nice glyphs

we have AS, which is situational, IE on bosses only

10% judge is nice

sov and expertise MEH, nice but idk, why is sov linked with expertise? i'd expect that with a dps seal...
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:33 am

Just to clear up a few things:

*Reducing the cost of heroic strike to zero does not make it free. You still lose the autoattack, and the rage it would generate. Depending on buffs, STR, and weapon, it's likely that reducing the rage cost to zero doesn't even cut the real price in half. Also, against multiple targets, you'd be cleaving anyway.

*The +10% block value glyph is amazing and overpowered, but the +10 expertise glyph is boring. Err... your evaluation of baseline stat increases looks a bit skewed on this one. Keep in mind that expertise has mitigative properties in reducing burst damage from parry returns - and that seeing as you'll be using more GCD attacks than previously, this is a much larger concern.

*In TBC, the "sunder armor effect" was only actually applied by the first 5 devastates. Once the debuff was fully active, devastate instead simply refreshes sunder armor and uses its own threat coefficient - not sunder's. Effectively, the devastate glyph will only make a difference in the first 5 GCD's of a fight, by collapsing that threat into 3 GCD's instead. It will address a huge warrior concern: startup threat. However, unless it works in a way I do not anticipate, it becomes useless after the first 7-seconds or so of a target's lifespan.

*You don't need every glyph to be extremely effective for every situation. In fact, they're situational by design: think of it as an extention of talent points, and view each one in the light it was designed for. Keep in mind also that you only need to find three major glyphs and three minor glyphs for each spec: more is great, but if you cannot find three tanking glyphs that is a major concern. Perhaps organizing your list by situation would make their individual value clearer. Do not write off glyphs that don't fit the role you want them to fit, when they're very good for another role, such as ret.

On a side note, a topic such as "TLDR; CRAP" is somewhat indicative of a closed-minded and predestined oppinion. This is not the first extremely pessimistic post I've seen from Warcrafter, so I'm not too shocked. Ultimately the discussion after the fact isn't half bad here, but phrasing almost everything as a rant makes your post come across as extremely subjective and off-base. I think you'd be able to get much more receptive replies if you presented a more in-depth analysis, such as indicating rather than "this glyph is useless in case X" that "this glyph is useless in all cases, or all cases except case X which is extremely uncommon." Even "this is exclusively inferior to glyph Y, allowed to another class" would work, though that falls into another fallicy of comparing parts instead of the whole.

EDIT: Bah, this is why I stopped making long posts - coming in after the Fridmarr "Back on topic" note. Though, to be fair, I think I'm still close enough to the topic to not just nuke my own post...

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Postby Mortehl » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:37 am

Splug, your points in that post are pretty dead on.

I'd like to add that I've been actively raiding on the PTR. The 10 Expertise is VERY measurable in what impact it brings, just look at the WWS. And having a ranged shield slam level damage from Avenger's shield is beyond amazing. It is FANTASTIC. I absolutely can't wait to use this for real.

Finally, anyone who doesn't want to start off with a guaranteed hit taunt with the RD glyph should really rethink things.
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Postby Lore » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:41 am

Mortehl wrote:Splug, your points in that post are pretty dead on.

I'd like to add that I've been actively raiding on the PTR. The 10 Expertise is VERY measurable in what impact it brings, just look at the WWS. And having a ranged shield slam level damage from Avenger's shield is beyond amazing. It is FANTASTIC. I absolutely can't wait to use this for real.

Finally, anyone who doesn't want to start off with a guaranteed hit taunt with the RD glyph should really rethink things.


This brings to mind a good point: We've got 3 amazing major glyphs already (4 if you count the AS glyph, which I don't plan to take but is very good), and although options are certainly nice and I definitely wouldn't mind them, 10% judgement damage, 10 expertise, and a near-unresistable taunt is pretty awesome as well.

My point? We're missing options, but our basic setup is really good. So if you're going to complain about something, complain about how we don't have options, not how ALL OUR GLYPHS ARE TERRIBLE OMG.
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