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Threat Comparisons - 2 tanks (at present)

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:11 am

fiorina wrote:According to this HotR is about 390TPS our of 4900. Nothing else, no mitigation just some trash utility. Honestly, not what I expected from 51-talent.

Firstly; ((1439/1.1-(4*155))/4)*14 = a buffed attack power of ~2409. That seems awfully low for level 80.

edit: just read this is the x3 version, so ~3935, which is much more like it. However you're arguing that broken spell is broken, it got fixed.

Secondly if it’s averaging 1439 then its (1439*1.9*1.43)/6 = ~651.63 tps. Unless you press it less.

fiorina wrote:5 minute enrage - 1:19 = 300-79= it's 221th second of fight.


fiorina wrote: Melee...67194 (469 avg)......x1.00 = 67194 (11.8%)
ShoR....63771 (3037 avg).....x2.28 = 145398 (25.5%)
SoV.....41850 (734 avg)......x1.90 = 79515 (13.9%)
HS......37349 (633 avg)......x2.28 = 85156 (14.9%)
JoV.....34374 (1910 avg).....x1.90 = 65311 (11.4%)
HotR....25909 (1439 avg).....x1.90 = 49227 (8.6%)
Cons....23818 (340 avg)......x1.90 = 45254 (7.9%)
Exorc...17213 (2151 avg).....x1.90 = 32705 (5.7%)



Shr = 221/(63771/3037) = lands every 10.5 seconds
JoV = 221/(34374/1910) = lands every 12.3 seconds
Hotr = 221/(25909/1439) = lands every 12.3 seconds
Cons = 221/(23818/(340*8 )) = used every 25.2 seconds

That’s where your issue is, and why you’re not seeing anything like the numbers the maths are supporting. I’ll try to use your gear (I can extrapolate) in some calcs.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:24 am

Ehum, it's 5 min enrage, but they killed it, so the fight lasted less to the math above means pretty much nothing.
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Postby Embher » Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:29 am

Worldie wrote:Ehum, it's 5 min enrage, but they killed it, so the fight lasted less to the math above means pretty much nothing.


What? punctuate. I think you have three sentences there. I do not understand what this says.


Guys, Fiorina, how long was this fight? What are those numbers called (x avg)? is that average dps of each ability or amount on each use of the ability? Also for say SOV, what the 700 does represent, each 3s tick dmg or over the full 15s duration?
I agree with Ehum. I do not think Fiorina was hitting every cd. I was looking at the math of it on my own.

Ehum is using 220s mark, that Fiorina mentioned, assuming at miniumum, they killed it just then, not at 5min.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:18 am

Worldie wrote:Ehum, it's 5 min enrage, but they killed it, so the fight lasted less to the math above means pretty much nothing.

Which is why I posted the quote where he told us the exact fight length :)
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:26 am

Embher wrote: Also for say SOV, what the 700 does represent, each 3s tick dmg or over the full 15s duration?

Good Point, lets assume 100% SoV uptime for a more accurate fight duration. 41850/734 57 ticks at 3 seconds = 171 seconds.

ShR = 8.15 seconds
JoV = 9.5 seconds (what I'd expect!)
HotR = 9.5 seconds
Cons = 19.53 seconds

Still somewhat behind a 6969 rotation

Edit: should note here that adding avoidance here gives you a hotr average usage of ~8 seconds
Last edited by ziggyunderslashone on Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby elson » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:34 am

Fridmarr wrote:Patchwerk hits the main tank extremely fast, in fact he could possibly burn through the current holy shield. In that WWS I linked, he swung at the MT 14 times in a 10 second span, and kept that rate up throughout.

So it's true that given damage shield, ret aura, and holy shield things would have been a little bit different had Fiorina been main tanking, you can't really deny that. However, I don't think it would have been a massive shift.


Ok that helps :)

Depending on how well one sticks with their rotation we get some variables here.

All charges eaten within 10 seconds=1374.8 tps or 171.9 tps per proc

All charges eaten within 9 seconds = 1528.7 tps or 191 tps per proc

All charges eaten within 8 seconds = 1719.8 tps or 214 tps per proc

I'm assuming the 6, 9, 6, 9 rotation so I am going with the tps/9 seconds.

Without holy shield procs fiorina was producing 4404 tps. On the 9 second cycle, each holy shield proc represented a 4.338 percent increase in tps from this base number. I'd call a variance in threat from zero up to 34.7% depending on the number of holy shield procs pretty friggen massive.

*edit.. nvmnd the previous edit.. *
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Postby Corman » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:12 am

Knaughty wrote:
There's a better fix than just boosting it even more: Damage = 9x weapon DPS, divided by number of targets hit, max 3. IE: Make it work the same way as Saber Lash. Same total damage as now, just "triple damage when single-tanking".


Was thinking this myself. That would make it NOT overpowered for multimobs yet dang useful in our rotation and from at least the reporting in the field, not make use threat gods either. Brilliant, I say. Except since its already 4x dps, make it 12 / # of enemies, max 3.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:05 am

Using fiorina's data:

Assuming 100% SoV uptime or 171 fight duration, 244k holy damage and 67k physical gives us 4442 tps. The change to HotR between then and now gives us 4579.

With a latency free perfect rotation (and assuming no exp or hit for simplicity, and keeping exorcism) that would climb to 5202. With a simple 69 rotation, 5088.

Working out fiorina's stats from shr, hotr and cons (bv, ap and sp respectively), Im getting 1645 bv, 3730 ap and 1175 sp.

Plugging this into the sheet gives a simple rotation tps of 5788 and a complex rotation of 6153 (AS and retri aura mostly the difference))

So I've got a 700 tps discrepancy between the sheet and fiorina's recount numbers. The majority of which is a 40% difference in SoV and JoV numbers (15% of this I'm assuming to be SotP), and a 50% difference in holy shield.

I'm going to fully rewrite those 3 spells (I'm also working through buffs, after which I need to rerun the warrior sim. SW and TC scale very well, so the importance of revenge is very dependent on current stats)
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Postby Embher » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:11 am

OK, fiorina mentioned 221 s, 171s that E derived, he seems to think is how long fiorina was alvie.

Can Fiorina just tell us the total time those dmg numbers were observed, and the what the dmg avg numbers mean for each spell?


This is all based on the assumption (that could be wrong) on the duration...
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Postby fiorina » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:16 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
fiorina wrote:According to this HotR is about 390TPS our of 4900. Nothing else, no mitigation just some trash utility. Honestly, not what I expected from 51-talent.

Firstly; ((1439/1.1-(4*155))/4)*14 = a buffed attack power of ~2409. That seems awfully low for level 80.

edit: just read this is the x3 version, so ~3935, which is much more like it. However you're arguing that broken spell is broken, it got fixed.

Secondly if it’s averaging 1439 then its (1439*1.9*1.43)/6 = ~651.63 tps. Unless you press it less.

fiorina wrote:5 minute enrage - 1:19 = 300-79= it's 221th second of fight.


fiorina wrote: Melee...67194 (469 avg)......x1.00 = 67194 (11.8%)
ShoR....63771 (3037 avg).....x2.28 = 145398 (25.5%)
SoV.....41850 (734 avg)......x1.90 = 79515 (13.9%)
HS......37349 (633 avg)......x2.28 = 85156 (14.9%)
JoV.....34374 (1910 avg).....x1.90 = 65311 (11.4%)
HotR....25909 (1439 avg).....x1.90 = 49227 (8.6%)
Cons....23818 (340 avg)......x1.90 = 45254 (7.9%)
Exorc...17213 (2151 avg).....x1.90 = 32705 (5.7%)



Shr = 221/(63771/3037) = lands every 10.5 seconds
JoV = 221/(34374/1910) = lands every 12.3 seconds
Hotr = 221/(25909/1439) = lands every 12.3 seconds
Cons = 221/(23818/(340*8 )) = used every 25.2 seconds

That’s where your issue is, and why you’re not seeing anything like the numbers the maths are supporting. I’ll try to use your gear (I can extrapolate) in some calcs.


Two different patchwerk fights. One is 10 men, one is 25. One lasted less than 3 minutes, another one about 4.

You know, I am quite tired arguing here again. Think what you want. Believe to whatever you like. You want to believe our threat is 8k, fine. You want to believe our threat and DPS is better than warrior in same gear, good for you.
Just don't twist my posts and try to form some theory which not begins with "let's assume x=random number"
Last edited by fiorina on Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:17 am

Embher wrote:OK, fiorina mentioned 221 s, 171s that E derived, he seems to think is how long fiorina was alvie.

That was me!

But ya, 171 is SoV uptime. If it fell off and the fight duration was indeed 221, then really I can't use it for comparison in any way.

The average numbers (from my knowledge of recount) is the average a spell hits for across all the recorded data, crit inclusive. That's why I used cons as the spell to determine spell damage, rather than assume a crit rate.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:21 am

fiorina wrote:You know, I am quite tired arguing here again. Think what you want. Believe to whatever you like.

I'm not arguing, I'm trying to use your data to help confirm the differences between the two classes, its been very helpful!

I'm not here to believe or guess, I'm here to help determine.

I took this:

fiorina wrote:Taken from very same fight (there is error in HS coeficient, so threat contribution is way lower)

to mean you meant "very same", but in the end I calculated the time differently anyhow.
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Postby fiorina » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:34 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
fiorina wrote:You know, I am quite tired arguing here again. Think what you want. Believe to whatever you like.

I'm not arguing, I'm trying to use your data to help confirm the differences between the two classes, its been very helpful!

I took this:

fiorina wrote:Taken from very same fight (there is error in HS coeficient, so threat contribution is way lower)

to mean you meant "very same", but in the end I calculated the time differently anyhow.


So use data from original thread maybe:
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... 015#250015 (hint, there is a screenshot) Fight lasted 2 minutes and 56 seconds before you ask.

221 seconds is 25 men patchwerk fight which example was used to calculate my TPS compared to DPSers. Don't mix apples and oranges.
Last edited by fiorina on Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Embher » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:34 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Embher wrote: Also for say SOV, what the 700 does represent, each 3s tick dmg or over the full 15s duration?

Good Point, lets assume 100% SoV uptime for a more accurate fight duration. 41850/734 57 ticks at 3 seconds = 171 seconds.

ShR = 8.15 seconds
JoV = 9.5 seconds (what I'd expect!)
HotR = 9.5 seconds
Cons = 19.53 seconds

Still somewhat behind a 6969 rotation

Edit: should note here that adding avoidance here gives you a hotr average usage of ~8 seconds


Ok, assumping 171 is the correct duration, this gives me hope that we have better TPS than Fiorina reported. All these abilities except judgement were being used 2 or more s after the cd was up.

ShR = 8.15 seconds > 6s cd --> (8.15-6)/6= 25% increase in dps/tps
JoV = 9.5 seconds (what I'd expect!) ~=9 cd with the desired 1/2 talent
HotR = 9.5 seconds > 6s cd ---> (9.5-6)/6=58% increase in dps
Cons = 19.53 seconds > 8s cd ---> (19.5-8)/9 =127% increase in dps

Assuming that the weights of these are roughly euqal to the previous estimated tps percentages,


ShR = 25% * 0.25 =12.5% increase in dps/tps

HotR = 58% * 10%=5.8% increase in dps/tps
Cons = 127%*10%=12.7% increase in dps/tps
total increase=31% increase potential

Fiorina's potential threat=4977TPS*131%=6519 tps
Fiorina's potential threat=6519 tps
Warrior's threat=5500 tps?

The question is this kind of human error in rotation normal? Is this 31% margin of error average enough to assume the warrior's behavior was 30% behind his ideal rotation? If so, we are still behind.

This is the quote that I used the tps total from:
fiorina wrote:5 minute enrage - 1:19 = 300-79= it's 221th second of fight.
My threat so far 1.1mil = 1,1m/221 = 4977TPS (This is including all gains and SA threat)
I had 2050DPS at the end of the fight, warrior was same(he had worse gear) and this was undead!

I was threat capped a little by warrior in worse gear, so let say 5500TPS with full buffs on static fight is about maximum for Naxx 10/25 gear combination.
Last edited by Embher on Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:41 am

fiorina wrote:So use data from original thread maybe:
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... 015#250015 (hint, there is a screenshot) Fight lasted 2 minutes and 56 seconds before you ask.

Thats the same data, am I missing something?

fiorina wrote:Since you jump in and start telling me my issue is because I use consecration every 25 seconds and Judgement every 15 based on numbers you pulled from your *** - awesome, but I have no interest to continue with this debate.

I used the data you supplied. If you say it was the same fight, I'll believe you, and now you're saying they were different, which I now understand. If you read down a bit, you'll see that I editted it based on a number calculated from the data itself.

I'm not trying to say your data isn't valid in any way. You're within 11% of what you could possibly achieve given the setup and situation. What I'm trying to show is like for like comparison doesn't work. By removing the situational elements mathematically, I've discovered some potential issues.

You have in fact helped enormously.
Last edited by ziggyunderslashone on Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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