Remove Advertisements

Threat Comparisons - 2 tanks (at present)

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Conaan! » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:43 pm

fiorina wrote:Oh look, 59 hits of HS in below 3 minutes fight. Thats 1 hit every 3 seconds, well above average. What are you guys blabbering about?
You have undead mob, high HS proc and my threat and DPS was noticeably lower. You want me to do test on dual-wield demon so it can support your construction?


that would be sweet



honestly just because you dont think that its single target threat isnt great doesnt mean that its useless, its a filler for our rotation and any threat all is better than none.
Image
Lore wrote:JEAPORDY: CREEPY BASEMENT EDITION
User avatar
Conaan!
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 3:22 pm

Postby fiorina » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:46 pm

I never wrote it's useless. I call it very disappointing for 51-point talent for maintank and sometimes not even worth global cooldown.

I can drink a ironshield, activate trinket and seed, LoH healer OR use HotR... bang 1400 hit, awesome :/
User avatar
fiorina
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:07 pm

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:13 pm

fiorina wrote:According to this HotR is about 390TPS our of 4900. Nothing else, no mitigation just some trash utility. Honestly, not what I expected from 51-talent.

Does your parse include the recent buff to HotR?

If "yes" - then I tend to agree, it seems lackluster. Holy Shield does more threat and provides significant mitigation.

They'd have to double the damage of HotR to make it match ShoR. Same change would also kill the "spell-damage weapon" argument.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby Conaan! » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:24 pm

fiorina wrote:I never wrote it's useless. I call it very disappointing for 51-point talent for maintank and sometimes not even worth global cooldown.

I can drink a ironshield, activate trinket and seed, LoH healer OR use HotR... bang 1400 hit, awesome :/


According to this HotR is about 390TPS our of 4900. Nothing else, no mitigation just some trash utility. Honestly, not what I expected from 51-talent.


that statement is very much "its useless on any boss", hence the "just some trash utility" "no mitigation" and the comparison of tps "390TPs out of our 4900", basicly your saying that on bosses its near useless and that any other ability should take its place.
Image
Lore wrote:JEAPORDY: CREEPY BASEMENT EDITION
User avatar
Conaan!
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 3:22 pm

Postby Selinaria » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:31 pm

Yea I do agree HotR could use a buff damage wise.

Note: One thing your numbers do not include Fio is the extra 1.43 threat modifier all tanks gets now. Doesn't really change the rankings that much although melee would be 1.43 while holy damage would be 2.717 thus reducing the value of melee overall. Every other tank has 2.0735 on all their threat. Just a minor thing = ) (and also why we have higher tps values for HotR than what you listed)

Basically as it stands now, skipping HotR for Exorcism and Avenger's Shield is what I tend to do on beta.

And in regards to the spreadsheet, given the little math I have been doing here, there has to be something wrong with the listed tps of HotR. Even being generous and assuming no misses/deflections/dodges there is no way it can produce 1400 tps. I am not entirely certain I see the error in it though.
Selinaria was suddenly surrounded by a gang of sharks, a cracked bat as her only protection!
Image
User avatar
Selinaria
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:55 am
Location: Burlington,Ontario, Canada

Postby fiorina » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:16 pm

Knaughty wrote:
fiorina wrote:According to this HotR is about 390TPS our of 4900. Nothing else, no mitigation just some trash utility. Honestly, not what I expected from 51-talent.

Does your parse include the recent buff to HotR?

If "yes" - then I tend to agree, it seems lackluster. Holy Shield does more threat and provides significant mitigation.

They'd have to double the damage of HotR to make it match ShoR. Same change would also kill the "spell-damage weapon" argument.


yes, it's few days old data, buff is definitely included.
User avatar
fiorina
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:07 pm

Postby fiorina » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:29 pm

Conaan! wrote:that statement is very much "its useless on any boss", hence the "just some trash utility" "no mitigation" and the comparison of tps "390TPs out of our 4900", basicly your saying that on bosses its near useless and that any other ability should take its place.


Stop putting words in my mouth :) As I said few times, it's a very disappointing for 51pt. talent. Let me check other classes:

Berserk(druid) - http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=50334
As written in comments - Multi-hit mangle, adrenaline rush and fear immunity in one instant cast move. Affecting both tank and DPS forms.

Shockwave(warr) - http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=46968
Attack power based cone dmg and 4 second stun, usable in tanking rotation. Immensely improving class versatility, from shitty AoE tank it made the best AoE tank out there.

Death knights don't have dedicated tanking tree so its not fair to compare 51pointers.

HotR(paladin) - http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53595
A 1400dmg cleave. If I wont use it while maintanking or AoE tanking noone will notice. One would think it would cause some extra threat at least, but nada. Not useless, but meh...

Fx.. there could be some 51-point ability which will consume next Redoubt, Holy shield or Reckoning charges. If holy shield is consumed - block value is doubled for some time. If also reckoning is consumed, then your threat generated is increased by 200%. If you will wait until Redoubt will be consumed, then upon release you gain... I don't know Transcendence state which makes you and 3 targets around you immune to fear and reduce damage taken by 5%.

Oh the blasphemy!
User avatar
fiorina
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:07 pm

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:23 pm

fiorina wrote:
Code: Select all
Ordered by threat contribution:
ShoR.....25.5%
HS.......14.9%
SoV......13.9%
JoV......11.4%
Melee....11.8%
HotR.....8.6%
Cons.....7.9%
Exorc....5.7%


.
fiorina wrote:
Knaughty wrote:Does your parse include the recent buff to HotR?

yes, it's few days old data, buff is definitely included.

HotR feels way to weak given those two bits of data.

Doing less threat than white damage? Less than Judgement, despite having 6 sec CD vs 9 sec?

I would expect my 51-pt talent to be (close to) my highest priority move in the situation it's designed for.

• Shockwave is designed for AE, and is thus just about the highest priority AE move for a warrior.
• Berserk is a 3 min CD and will be used every CD unless it needs to be saved as a fear break.

Our 51-pt is a generic threat move in our standard TPS cycle.

It's currently our worst "threat per GCD" move, every (?) other ability has a higher priority that HotR. Shouldn't it be close to our best threat move?

There's a better fix than just boosting it even more: Damage = 9x weapon DPS, divided by number of targets hit, max 3. IE: Make it work the same way as Saber Lash. Same total damage as now, just "triple damage when single-tanking".
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:43 pm

It's really hard to simply compare 51 point talents because so much context gets ignored when you do that. In hindsight, I'd rather have a mitigation skill to activate, but I do understand the point of the talent. In order to move to more melee oriented stats we needed a strike type ability and HotR fits that role. They are still doing numbers tweaking, so if there's an issue, let's make sure they know of it.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Embher » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:38 pm

I thought we already established white dmg with righteous fury has 1.4 threat modifier.....
and spells have 2.3ish


http://failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/ ... baked+salv

links to
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17089-pala ... post900799

which says that
with RF,
white dmg gets 1.43 multiplier
holy dmg gets 1.9*1.43=2.717
Image
Embher
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:57 am

Postby elson » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:37 pm

fiorina wrote:
Oh look, 59 hits of HS in below 3 minutes fight. Thats 1 hit every 3 seconds, well above average. What are you guys blabbering about?
You have undead mob, high HS proc and my threat and DPS was noticeably lower. You want me to do test on dual-wield demon so it can support your construction?



No, a dual wielding demon is not needed. Knowing how often you would get hit if your role and the warriors role were reversed is. Just knowing patchwerks attack speed and your avoidance numbers would suffice. I'm sure those numbers wouldn't be too difficult for a non-armchair quarter back to come up with.

Getting hit "faster than average" is meaningless information without knowing how fast you would have been hit otherwise. Your high HS proc rate is still for less than half of holy shields potential threat per cast. Using the data you've given with a 633 avg HS proc, your looking at 1719.8 threat per proc given the correct (dmg*1.43)*(1.9) formula.

The fact that holy shields proc rate matters proves your point more than anything else oddly enough. We should not only be able to do competitive threat against fast hitters. If we are far enough behind except vs those types of mobs, then yes there is a valid concern and reason for Hotr or other talents to be looked at.
Zeal without wisdom is folly

My armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... ll&n=Elson
elson
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:49 am

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:46 pm

elson wrote:
fiorina wrote:
Oh look, 59 hits of HS in below 3 minutes fight. Thats 1 hit every 3 seconds, well above average. What are you guys blabbering about?
You have undead mob, high HS proc and my threat and DPS was noticeably lower. You want me to do test on dual-wield demon so it can support your construction?



No, a dual wielding demon is not needed. Knowing how often you would get hit if your role and the warriors role were reversed is. Just knowing patchwerks attack speed and your avoidance numbers would suffice. I'm sure those numbers wouldn't be too difficult for a non-armchair quarter back to come up with.

Getting hit "faster than average" is meaningless information without knowing how fast you would have been hit otherwise. Your high HS proc rate is still for less than half of holy shields potential threat per cast. Using the data you've given with a 633 avg HS proc, your looking at 1719.8 threat per proc given the correct (dmg*1.43)*(1.9) formula.

The fact that holy shields proc rate matters proves your point more than anything else oddly enough. We should not only be able to do competitive threat against fast hitters. If we are far enough behind except vs those types of mobs, then yes there is a valid concern and reason for Hotr or other talents to be looked at.


Patchwerk hits the main tank extremely fast, in fact he could possibly burn through the current holy shield. In that WWS I linked, he swung at the MT 14 times in a 10 second span, and kept that rate up throughout.

So it's true that given damage shield, ret aura, and holy shield things would have been a little bit different had Fiorina been main tanking, you can't really deny that. However, I don't think it would have been a massive shift.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Belarkan » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:48 pm

fiorina wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
fiorina wrote:According to this HotR is about 390TPS our of 4900. Nothing else, no mitigation just some trash utility. Honestly, not what I expected from 51-talent.

Does your parse include the recent buff to HotR?

If "yes" - then I tend to agree, it seems lackluster. Holy Shield does more threat and provides significant mitigation.

They'd have to double the damage of HotR to make it match ShoR. Same change would also kill the "spell-damage weapon" argument.


yes, it's few days old data, buff is definitely included.


If you meant the x4 modifier it's not on ptr yet.
I did some math and it is still on x3 factor, just like the tooltip says.
Belarkan
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:32 am

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:53 pm

Belarkan wrote:
fiorina wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
fiorina wrote:According to this HotR is about 390TPS our of 4900. Nothing else, no mitigation just some trash utility. Honestly, not what I expected from 51-talent.

Does your parse include the recent buff to HotR?

If "yes" - then I tend to agree, it seems lackluster. Holy Shield does more threat and provides significant mitigation.

They'd have to double the damage of HotR to make it match ShoR. Same change would also kill the "spell-damage weapon" argument.


yes, it's few days old data, buff is definitely included.


If you meant the x4 modifier it's not on ptr yet.
I did some math and it is still on x3 factor, just like the tooltip says.

On beta it is definitely X4 and has been for a few patches now. I just verified it again, DPS on my character sheet says 305.2, HotR'd the target dummy for 1221.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Amarant_Pally » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:55 pm

Hm...would have HotR "spread" out it's damage among 3 targets work better?

Say for single target, it's 12x weapon damage. If 3 targets are in range, each target gets hit by 4x weapon damage.

Or would that be too much for single target?
Amarant_Pally
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 2:53 pm

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest