10m vs 25m dungeons in WotLK - tell us about it, pls:)

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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:32 am

Erendis wrote:
Worldie wrote:
Erendis wrote:
Worldie wrote:Don't just "think" of it as heroic, the 25 men is indeed the Heroic version of the 10 men ^^


That makes me sad. I'd rather they made 10 and 25 man equally hard but tuned for more or less people.

Every 10 men is 1 tier behind the 25 men according to blizzard, so it's natural that the 10 men is easier than the 25.

And after all, coordinating 25 people is always harder than coordinating 10.


Higher tier makes sense. I was just hoping that the 10 mans would be as hard execution wise the same that doing ZA as progression was as hard as what tier 5 content I've done.

I get the feeling from how people are talking that 10 mans might not satisfy me as much as I hoped they would.


I bet they will have some very difficult 10 man encounters. It's just a little harder to get an encounter tuned as tightly as you can a 25 man simply because of group composition.
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Postby Kelaan » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:43 am

Erendis wrote:I get the feeling from how people are talking that 10 mans might not satisfy me as much as I hoped they would.


It seems like a partial solution would be:
- if it's too easy, beat it and move to the next tier of 10-mans.
- once you've mastered the fights, you can also go trounce it in 25s, most likely.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:47 am

Strom wrote:If they do their job right, and I think they will get very very close, then 10 man raids should be about the same level of challenge for 10 people as 25 man raids will be for 25 people :D


I'm not sure it's about doing their job "right"... I'm not convinced that's their design goal, even if it's what people would like to see. Clearly a 10-man has to be easier than a 25-man because they're giving the 10-man raiders less stats to work with.

When T8 comes around, the T8 10-man will be based on ilvl 200, the T8 25-man will be based on ilvl 213. It won't just be the # of people. Right now naxx10 and naxx25 are both based on ilvl 200 blues and ilvl 200 epics from heroics, so they're closer in actual, "true" difficulty than future raid zones will be, I would guess. Everyone's in the same starting gear for both 10 and 25, but the next tier that won't be true.

-- On the other hand, challenge has nothing to do with gear OR number of people. Challenge is, at minimum, about expecting a level of execution from each player. Trying to tie in things like gear or # of players is clearly going to be used, but that's a choice to adding challenge, not an inherent requirement. Imo. :)

Now, as for:
I suppose the reward difference is to cover the added trouble of getting 25 people together and making sure 95% of them do not suck lol.


I have an idea on that but I probably won't share it lest I throw fuel on that fire again. :)
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Postby Strom » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:52 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:I'm not convinced that's their design goal, even if it's what people would like to see.


They have stated it IS their goal. Let me try and find some of the old blue posts regarding this.
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Postby Slamdorff » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:53 am

Great info so far - let more flow,pls.

fiorina wrote:
Worldie wrote:Imagine a Patchwerk-like boss, and his hurtful strike, it hits for the same amount in 10 men and 25 men.


erm...
10 men HS - around 6k
25 men HS - around 16k


?

What are you referring to, Fiorina?
Please enlighten us.

Does anybody have any specific comparisons from encounters?
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:17 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:When T8 comes around, the T8 10-man will be based on ilvl 200, the T8 25-man will be based on ilvl 213. It won't just be the # of people. Right now naxx10 and naxx25 are both based on ilvl 200 blues and ilvl 200 epics from heroics, so they're closer in actual, "true" difficulty than future raid zones will be, I would guess. Everyone's in the same starting gear for both 10 and 25, but the next tier that won't be true.

-- On the other hand, challenge has nothing to do with gear OR number of people. Challenge is, at minimum, about expecting a level of execution from each player. Trying to tie in things like gear or # of players is clearly going to be used, but that's a choice to adding challenge, not an inherent requirement.


Yeah, I don't like that part. Initially, I'd say eh who cares if the 25 man gives slightly better loot, they are doing the "harder" version of the instance so it's okay. But then think about next tier. tier 1 naxx 10 and 25 man versions will be fine, t2 10 man will have a fatal flaw- it's going to be a lot easier for naxx 25 guilds to clear because they will have all superior gear. If it is tuned for 10 man guilds that only did naxx 10, it'll be trivial for naxx 25 guilds. And if it is tuned to be a challenge for naxx 25 guilds, it's going to be much harder for naxx 10 guilds with significantly inferior gear.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby honorshammer » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:18 pm

Arcand wrote:


So no 25-man raider will ever call a non-25 raider a 'scrub' again. That's great! [/quote]

/magic8ball: Don't count on it.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:30 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:-- On the other hand, challenge has nothing to do with gear OR number of people. Challenge is, at minimum, about expecting a level of execution from each player.


It could just be that we're defining 'challenge' differently, but I'd say it has a great deal to do with the number of people even if the individual tasks required are identical.

If you take ten bright, switched-on raiders and tell them they must not move when Flame Wreath is cast or the raid blows up, and they hold still with 99.5% reliability, there is a 4.9% chance per attempt of the raid blowing up. (1 - 0.995^10)

Buff Aran's health so he lives equally long under 25-man DPS, buff his damage so he strains seven healers just as much. The 25-man raid still has an 11.8% chance of blowing up per attempt. (1-0.995^25)

(Some of the 25-raiders will, of course, announce that they have twice as much skill as the 10-raiders because they kill a boss who blows up the raid twice as often. And yet all the players are having to perform the same task, and on an individual basis they're doing it equally well.)

So if anything, the larger raids have to be more careful about the way they test the group because more mistakes are going to be made. The larger group can absorb more punishment before it loses its last healer, interruptor, dispeller or what have you, but in some ways it's potentially even more fragile than the 10.
Last edited by Arcand on Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:32 pm

Honorshammer wrote:
Arcand wrote:
So no 25-man raider will ever call a non-25 raider a 'scrub' again. That's great!


/magic8ball: Don't count on it.


/em isn't. :roll:
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:38 pm

Arcand wrote:Buff Aran's health so he lives equally long under 25-man DPS, buff his damage so he strains seven healers just as much. The 25-man raid still has an 11.8% chance of blowing up per attempt. (1-0.995^25)


While I agree with your theory craft, in practice I haven't noticed this to be the case in BC. In taking a guild through karazhan, gruuls, ssc, and tk, the thing I noticed is that the 25 man raids are MUCH more forgiving for poorly performing players. In particular some fights like lurker and solarian were trivially easy even with some really bad players, because as long as the tanks and healers did their job the rest of the raid wasn't particularly important.

On the other hand, the harder Karazhan or ZA fights I really felt like every raid spot was crucial, and you couldn't get away with giving up any of them to poor players. I mean after we out geared it Prince and Nightbane were certainly doable with 5+ good players, but ZA in particular I'd never dream of taking in a healer with 700 + healing, while such a player did fine in SSC.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:45 pm

kurros wrote:While I agree with your theory craft, in practice I haven't noticed this to be the case in BC. In taking a guild through karazhan, gruuls, ssc, and tk, the thing I noticed is that the 25 man raids are MUCH more forgiving for poorly performing players.


Yeah, sorry, I didn't follow through on my argument very well.

I wanted to show that if an encounter's tests were equally hard on an individual basis, an encounter which is okay for ten would be punishingly hard on twenty-five.

If Blizzard has taken this into account, then your observation makes perfect sense - they've made the 25-man tests a smidge easier than the 10-man counterparts so the mean time between catastrophic failures is about the same.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:03 pm

kurros wrote:
Arcand wrote:Buff Aran's health so he lives equally long under 25-man DPS, buff his damage so he strains seven healers just as much. The 25-man raid still has an 11.8% chance of blowing up per attempt. (1-0.995^25)


While I agree with your theory craft, in practice I haven't noticed this to be the case in BC. In taking a guild through karazhan, gruuls, ssc, and tk, the thing I noticed is that the 25 man raids are MUCH more forgiving for poorly performing players. In particular some fights like lurker and solarian were trivially easy even with some really bad players, because as long as the tanks and healers did their job the rest of the raid wasn't particularly important.

On the other hand, the harder Karazhan or ZA fights I really felt like every raid spot was crucial, and you couldn't get away with giving up any of them to poor players. I mean after we out geared it Prince and Nightbane were certainly doable with 5+ good players, but ZA in particular I'd never dream of taking in a healer with 700 + healing, while such a player did fine in SSC.
Doesn't Zul'Aman also drop equipment that is equivalent to Kael'Thas/Vashj by item level? I think it's just scaled to be harder than TK, and on-par with early BT/Hyjal. That said, while it does take 2.5x as many people being retarded or confused to cause problems in a larger raid scheme as it does in a smaller one, you also have 2.5x as many people to "roll the dice" on making mistakes. The difficulty tuning moreso than the number of people determines what percentage of your raid can screw up. Whether that's two people out of ten or five out of twenty five, it still requires the same percentage of competant players doing their job to succeed.

The difficulty threshold for a large portion of TBC was fairly low. If someone has not seen Sunwell, they really don't have any experience with "difficult" 25-man content. Even in Zul'Aman you can afford to have one player be completely dead weight; we've done 9-man clears on pre-t6-geared alts. I would not want to look at M'uru with 1-3 people offline.

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Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:11 pm

Splug wrote:The difficulty threshold for a large portion of TBC was fairly low. If someone has not seen Sunwell, they really don't have any experience with "difficult" 25-man content.


I submit that, while X may be the hardest thing you've ever seen, declaring that 'X is hard and everything else is easy' is subjective and seems a little ungenerous.
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Postby honorshammer » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:14 pm

Splug wrote:The difficulty threshold for a large portion of TBC was fairly low. If someone has not seen Sunwell, they really don't have any experience with "difficult" 25-man content.
-Splug


I would argue Sunwell was overtuned. I feel the hoops you had to jump through to progress in Sunwell were not fun for a lot of guilds, and the amount of min maxing you had to do with Raid Groups and even professions (go go Drumline!) took some of the entertainment value away from the instance. I'm sorry I never got to see it, but I'm glad I didn't have to go through respecing every other fight too.
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Postby Strom » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:14 pm

Splug wrote:Even in Zul'Aman you can afford to have one player be completely dead weight; we've done 9-man clears on pre-t6-geared alts. I would not want to look at M'uru with 1-3 people offline.

-Splug


But one could argue that no SWP equivalent was designed for a 10 man raid. Therefore Blizzard *could* have made a M'uru encouter for a 10 man that was just as straining and difficult.

I guess we will just have to wait and see. But I think many people will find out that Blizzard can make these 10 mans very difficult. There are many on my server that think they will farm these 10 mans with ease on their 25 man off nights. I believe they are in for a suprise.
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