10m vs 25m dungeons in WotLK - tell us about it, pls:)

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10m vs 25m dungeons in WotLK - tell us about it, pls:)

Postby Slamdorff » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:37 am

Hi all Beta players,

Can anybody describe the difference between 10 and 25 man dungeons in WotLK. Does it feel much different to play them and are the abilities much different? And whatever else you can tell about the difference in raiding them.

I would find it fun to make a tight raid group for 10-man only, if theres not too much difference, except on the social part. That would be an easier way to have a serious casual raidgroup and easier to organize if you only can raid few days a week.

Looking forward to hearing some experiences. Specific examples are most welcome.

If this is already covered in a post, please show me - I haven't been able to find any info on this.

Cheers,

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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:43 am

The difference can be resumed like this

25 men has more trashs and they are somehow harder to start with
25 men loots are about 10 iLvls ahead of the corresponding 10 men

25 men bosses, compared to 10 men do:
1) Drop a different kind of badge (which correspond to stronger items)
2) Hit generally harder
3) Have more HP (rly?)
4) Occasionally have additional skill
5) Require more coordination and give less room for errors


That's about it.
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Postby daemonym » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:21 am

basically think of the 25 version as the 10 version on heroic with 15 more people to help/hinder.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:22 am

Don't just "think" of it as heroic, the 25 men is indeed the Heroic version of the 10 men ^^
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Erendis » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:26 am

Worldie wrote:Don't just "think" of it as heroic, the 25 men is indeed the Heroic version of the 10 men ^^


That makes me sad. I'd rather they made 10 and 25 man equally hard but tuned for more or less people.
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Postby ulushnar » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:26 am

Worldie wrote:Don't just "think" of it as heroic, the 25 men is indeed the Heroic version of the 10 men ^^


As someone who's planning on doing heroics and 10-mans almost exclusively in WotLK, I'd better start paying attention to my instance difficulty toggle. ><
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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:27 am

Erendis wrote:
Worldie wrote:Don't just "think" of it as heroic, the 25 men is indeed the Heroic version of the 10 men ^^


That makes me sad. I'd rather they made 10 and 25 man equally hard but tuned for more or less people.

Every 10 men is 1 tier behind the 25 men according to blizzard, so it's natural that the 10 men is easier than the 25.

And after all, coordinating 25 people is always harder than coordinating 10.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Erendis » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:33 am

Worldie wrote:
Erendis wrote:
Worldie wrote:Don't just "think" of it as heroic, the 25 men is indeed the Heroic version of the 10 men ^^


That makes me sad. I'd rather they made 10 and 25 man equally hard but tuned for more or less people.

Every 10 men is 1 tier behind the 25 men according to blizzard, so it's natural that the 10 men is easier than the 25.

And after all, coordinating 25 people is always harder than coordinating 10.


Higher tier makes sense. I was just hoping that the 10 mans would be as hard execution wise the same that doing ZA as progression was as hard as what tier 5 content I've done.

I get the feeling from how people are talking that 10 mans might not satisfy me as much as I hoped they would.
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Postby honorshammer » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:39 am

Erendis wrote:I get the feeling from how people are talking that 10 mans might not satisfy me as much as I hoped they would.


I will conjecture they are basing it on 10 man Naxx. The next 10 mans will probably be harder.

They showed us with ZA they can make 10 mans Hard.

You may disagree but I'd say if you ran Shadow Labs in most green/blue gear (say around 2.1), you would say Blizzard showed they could make 5 mans Hard.

I still haven't done Heroic Shadow Labs because we had such a bad time with normal (and I ran it many times getting people keyed for Kara).
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Postby Strom » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:39 am

This is hard to gadge from entry level instances. Wait until T8 ot T9 and then we can see how tough the 10 man line can get. I suspect Blizzard will keep the difficulty relatively close between the 10 and 25 man instances.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:05 am

Erendis wrote:
I get the feeling from how people are talking that 10 mans might not satisfy me as much as I hoped they would.

Noone said 10 men will be easy.

However, coordinating 10 men will always be easier than coordinating 25, plus, there's a limit to the challenges they can put in a 10 men.

Imagine a Patchwerk-like boss, and his hurtful strike, it hits for the same amount in 10 men and 25 men.
In the 10 men, (assuming 2 healers) they cannot possibly make the strike hit more than every 2/2.5 seconds, because else it's going to be impossible to keep the single offtank up.
In the 25 men version, however, they can make it hit quicker, since there's going to be more than 1 offtank, so they can make his hurtful hit every 1.5 second. Or they can add raidwide damage since there's going to be more healers than just the 2 spamming one tank each.

I hope it makes the idea.

If it doesnt, imagine Zul Jin phase 3 with 25 people.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Strom » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:42 am

Look at it from the other angle. They have to make the bosses hit harder to account for the extra healers you have. They have to make the bosses/mobs have more life to account for the extra DPS you have. They increase the number of mobs on trash to account for the extra tanks you have.... etc etc. So basically the difficulty is relative to the amount of people you have in there.

If they do their job right, and I think they will get very very close, then 10 man raids should be about the same level of challenge for 10 people as 25 man raids will be for 25 people :D

I suppose the reward difference is to cover the added trouble of getting 25 people together and making sure 95% of them do not suck lol.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:18 am

Strom wrote:If they do their job right, and I think they will get very very close, then 10 man raids should be about the same level of challenge for 10 people as 25 man raids will be for 25 people :D


So no 25-man raider will ever call a non-25 raider a 'scrub' again. That's great! :D

/unbridledoptimism
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Postby fiorina » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:25 am

Worldie wrote:Imagine a Patchwerk-like boss, and his hurtful strike, it hits for the same amount in 10 men and 25 men.


erm...
10 men HS - around 6k
25 men HS - around 16k
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Postby Nalyn » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:31 am

Worldie wrote:If it doesnt, imagine Zul Jin phase 3 with 25 people.


Oh god, the horror!

We still have problems with this at times, people deciding corners or the stairs are good places to stand, /facepalm. That and we have one paladin that I now make a crack about nailing one of his feet to the ground on each attempt, he has a knack for getting thrown out of the zul'jin encounter area by the tornadoes.
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