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Seals of the Pure vs Conviction

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Seals of the Pure vs Conviction

Postby Korangar » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:31 pm

Okay, just looking at the standard cookie cutter build, we're sitting at basically 0/56/6 as required or damn useful talents.

As the title says though, is 15% more damage on our seal/judgement better than 5% universal crit in terms of threat?

I'm not on beta, so I don't know the numbers. My gut instinct tells me that the crit is better and that a 5/56/10 spec would be a little silly compared to a 0/56/15.

On one hand I can see the Seals working better in the multi-target situation, but the 5% melee crit does work on hammer and shield, right?

So, enlightened beta pallies, what's the best bang for the buck here?
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Postby Kaienn » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 pm

I don't know if you're going 5/5 Benediction but it isn't of any use in WotLK.

My lvl 80 spec:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZ0xVA0uGteIRGots

The mana regen you get from all the raid wide/self buffs such as Replenishment, Spiritual Attunement, Judgment of Wisdom, Blessing of Sanctuary; will be more than enough to keep your mana well above normal. Even if you find yourself lacking mana for an unusual amount of time, one mana potion will fill your mana bar up to full.
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Postby Korangar » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:47 pm

Nope, honestly I hadn't even considered a single point in benediction:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVAcuMteIRGoxf0x

And yes, I understand the 6969 rotation perfectly, I understand that for tanking, the extra point is a waste, if the rotation can be done flawlessly. But, it doesn't hurt to have the extra point either, since it just means the CD is up a bit sooner; during the GCD.

Simply due to the fact that tanking is more of an art than a science, and given the idea that my latency varies more than I'd like, if the faster CD on Judgement is of any use to me at all even 1% of the time, then it's probably a worthwhile talent point. 2% mana reduction on my instants can't make or break the raid, but in some really far off scenario, a faster judgement might save it, who knows.

Anyways, enough about the pre-emptive defense of my spec, I'm just throwing that up there to illustrate what I'm talking about, with the 5% conviction. I fully understand the mana issues, or lack thereof that we have now, thanks to sanctuary + everything else.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:01 am

Korangar wrote:Nope, honestly I hadn't even considered a single point in benediction:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVAcuMteIRGoxf0x

And yes, I understand the 6969 rotation perfectly, I understand that for tanking, the extra point is a waste, if the rotation can be done flawlessly. But, it doesn't hurt to have the extra point either, since it just means the CD is up a bit sooner; during the GCD.

Simply due to the fact that tanking is more of an art than a science, and given the idea that my latency varies more than I'd like, if the faster CD on Judgement is of any use to me at all even 1% of the time, then it's probably a worthwhile talent point. 2% mana reduction on my instants can't make or break the raid, but in some really far off scenario, a faster judgement might save it, who knows.

Anyways, enough about the pre-emptive defense of my spec, I'm just throwing that up there to illustrate what I'm talking about, with the 5% conviction. I fully understand the mana issues, or lack thereof that we have now, thanks to sanctuary + everything else.


There is an old thread where math showed Seals of the Pure to produce more threat than Conviction, however since that time some of the damage we produce has moved around a bit, so the math on some of these threat skills, Seals of the Pure, Reckoning, Conviction, should probably be redone.
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Postby gmf1 » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:18 am

I'de like to look at those numbers with the new coeficients, if anyone has spare time :) my maths is as good as prot pally dps in live.
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Postby Ashmadai » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:46 am

My instincts say Seals of the Pure will probably win out in terms of better overall threat, but my fun meter says I might go for conviction because critting with shield slam and hammer of the righteous will be fun. =D

The only bummer to me is not being able to get Divine Guardian and 5/5 Conviction without losing something I want in the Prot tree, because I actually dig DG for helping reduce AoE damage when I'm not main tanking. I am one of several great tanks in my guild and I would like to have that tool to help them.
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Postby Songblade » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:14 am

gmf1 wrote:I'de like to look at those numbers with the new coeficients, if anyone has spare time :) my maths is as good as prot pally dps in live.


My math is awesome...

It's my laziness that holds me back.
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Postby Nalyn » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:21 am

Ashmadai wrote:My instincts say Seals of the Pure will probably win out in terms of better overall threat, but my fun meter says I might go for conviction because critting with shield slam and hammer of the righteous will be fun. =D


But putting points in holy just feels...wrong...

I think a lot depends on just how things work out, I don't see myself getting seals of the pure unless it's just THAT good.

The talents I'm torn on right now is Benediction versus Conviction versus Kings, and really, only time is going to tell on that. I don't think being mana starved is going to be an issue, but by the same token, with 3.0, in full tank gear, I'm going to be going from a 6.5k'ish mana pool, to one slightly over 4k. I also don't know what the paladin numbers in our raids is going to look like, and just what specs they are going to be, it's very possible I might be the one casting Kings for the raid, or someone else may do it. And...more crits are always fun, if I don't end up needing the other two.
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Postby Norrath » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:01 am

Kaienn wrote:I don't know if you're going 5/5 Benediction but it isn't of any use in WotLK.


Of course it's of use. 10% off all mana costs -- all of the spells we use to tank with are instant in Wrath -- is nothing to scoff at. It's not amazing, but it's certainly useful.
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Postby Scotthew » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:29 am

My answer is get both! :mrgreen:

5 | 51 | 15

Of course this all changes with raid set up. If I have a more than one Ret paladin and he has Kings, I'll get Reckoning instead. I'll also give up HotC for Benediction. If I feel I need points in Judgements of the Just, I'll take a couple points from either Conviction or Guarded by the Light depending. 5/51/15 will likely be my universal 10-man and Heroics setup though.


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Postby Geostigma » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:31 am

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZaxVA0uMteIRGoxob
This is going to be in my talent tree when I hit 80.
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Postby Korangar » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:57 pm

Scotthew wrote:My answer is get both! :mrgreen:

5 | 51 | 15


Oof. I don't know if 20% more incoming damage (vs single targets) is a worthwhile tradeoff for a little extra threat personally.

And people naysay Argent Defender a lot, but it's not an entirely unsound talent, the theory being that the leapfrogging has been lessened a bit.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:18 pm

Korangar wrote:
Scotthew wrote:My answer is get both! :mrgreen:

5 | 51 | 15


Oof. I don't know if 20% more incoming damage (vs single targets) is a worthwhile tradeoff for a little extra threat personally.

And people naysay Argent Defender a lot, but it's not an entirely unsound talent, the theory being that the leapfrogging has been lessened a bit.


I doubt the leapfrogging has been lessened. Anyhow, you can get away without judgements of the just if you have a warrior or druid applying their version of the debuff for you.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:32 pm

Conviction also works if you're ever prot healing or healing yourself....
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Postby Scotthew » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:57 pm

Korangar wrote:Oof. I don't know if 20% more incoming damage (vs single targets) is a worthwhile tradeoff for a little extra threat personally.

And people naysay Argent Defender a lot, but it's not an entirely unsound talent, the theory being that the leapfrogging has been lessened a bit.

It's not that I'm necessarily against Ardent Defender, I use it on live, but with all the changes there are just so many better uses of 5 points now. Judgements of the Just is something I may pick up depending on typical raid composition. Like mentioned, there are other classes that can apply the same affect. Outside of raiding the damage reduction isn't necessary imo and it will slightly lessen single target threat output.


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